Trey: hello and welcome back
to another episode of MCU.

Need to know a podcast dedicated
to the Marvel cinematic universe

and everything you need to know.

I'm Trey untrue.

I'm doing pretty fantastic.

We are here at the end of another finale
and it's just really, really exciting to

get to be here and discuss this with you.

Oh yeah.

I will say this though.

And this serves as kind of like
a reminder for maybe if anybody

didn't see it in the feed.

The last three episodes that we
have put out, bonuses included.

We've worked with guests and every
time we have a guest on, like, I, I do,

um, a write-up to like introduce them
and I will sit here before we record

for a good 10 minutes, just practicing
that I was sitting here and I felt

like I was missing something because I
didn't have to have a prepared intro.

I was just sitting here wondering if I
was missing something the entire time,

Jude: you know what we
have, we've had what?

We mentioned the last part.

We had four recordings last week and
yeah, our show had again, Bonus episode

where the guests, Rob and Jamison Tara
bonus on us, we recorded with Tara.

I don't know when that one's
coming out with, for her pot.

So at least at this point,
be on the lookout for that.

If you're listening to Tara's pod and
if you're not, you definitely should.

Now I'm going to transition one thing Tara
didn't do on our pie, but I think we're

going to get it is our spoiler sound.

And we put it out there where what if
this should be 10 episodes and almost

every guest we've had has done their
own rendition of the spoiler sound.

And we'd love to at least during
what if replace our spoiler

bumper with our listeners, a
rendition of the spoiler sound.

So if you would like to participate,
go ahead and record yourself.

It could even be in
your, on your cell phone.

That's perfectly fine.

Email it in@mcuneedstoknowatgmail.com
and we will.

Get it ready to, you know,
keep us separated from pre

spoiler and spoiler thoughts.

Trey: Yeah.

Yeah.

Look, there's 10 episodes.

We know at least 10 people, listen, this
is going to be like, do it, come on.

Jude: It'll be fun.

But if we get enough of them,
we can go beyond I feel,

Trey: Hey, what apparently, apparently
what if is getting a season two?

So there's potential for more nice,
well, you know, speaking of that

engagement, uh, you know, every week
at the end of the show, we always talk

about leaving a rating and review.

Uh, we wanted to take some
time to highlight a review.

We just got recently.

And so I'm gonna read it.

This one comes in from Sierra D L and
it says amazing voices and opinions.

So my boyfriend and I have been
watching the Marvel movies recently,

and it's so fun to listen to this
podcast as we go throughout the movies.

I can't wait to listen to the
episodes about the MCU shows.

I've been skipping those because
spoilers, I love this podcast

because it feels like I'm listening
to my friends, talk about Marvel.

And I just don't feel so
alone when I have it on.

This is also one of the only
podcasts I listened to because

I normally can't get into them.

So again, Sierra, thank you so
much for that super kind review

and also to play into what we were
just talking about, reinforcing

the important needs for the smile.

Jude: Yes.

Thank you, Sierra.

Thank you for the time.

Trey: Well, you know, like I said,
we are here at the finale of low-key.

If you downloaded this episode, you
know that we're going to be talking

about Loki season one, episode
six, entitled for all time, always.

And let's just go ahead and get into it.

If you've been listening, you know, that
we always have our preschooler thoughts,

uh, followed by the spoiler sound
where we'll get into the spoiler zone.

So before we get there, dude, what
are your pre spoiler thoughts?

Jude: Other thoughts on this
episode, I'm going to say this might

be my favorite or the best finale
of the three Disney plus shows.

I think so.

Yeah.

Uh, I, yeah, it was done really well.

Um, yeah,

Trey: that's really exciting
to hear because I didn't know

which way you were going to go.

So I'm genuinely excited
to hear this episode.

Jude: Yeah, it just, it just was.

And, and, you know, they,
they ended this show.

Well, you know, and, and again, it's
not that they didn't in fucking the

winter soldier, well, or one division.

Well, but we talked about it.

Um, just the feeling of having to finish
your final fight, set piece, wrap up

these loosens, and it just felt weird.

It felt like watching those, that
I hit pause and walked away for a

week and came back and hit play.

Whereas these, this here actually
felt like you would think with the

DV show of like, oh, there was a
natural end episode five, and then,

you know, we get the natural episode
six, uh, and it just, it flowed really.

Here's where their thoughts.

What do you think?

Pre spoiler thoughts?

I should say.

Yeah.

Trey: I want to be careful because
I know I mentioned that there

was something in one division
that was a saga defining moment.

And I may or may not have put my foot
in my mouth with that one, but because

I'm me, I'm about to do it again.

This episode felt like the MC.

Babe roofing they're shot with
where they're going to go.

If we're going to get another Avengers
end game, where we have that incredibly

cathartic moment of the portal scene,
everything in that last half of Avengers

end game, we will be able to trace it
all the way back to the feeling of this

insurmountable mountain that we got a
glimpse up here in this low-key finale.

So I am genuinely
excited with where we go.

Um, I do think that you brought up
some things that I want to touch on

when we get into the spoiler zone
about the comparisons of the previous

Disney plus shows and this one in
terms of completing their story.

I'll have more to stay in the spoiler
zone, but I do feel, I guess, just

to echo what you said, I think this
is the strongest finale that we've

gotten out of the three show so far.

Well,

Jude: I need, I need to add as well.

You said may bruising their shot.

Um, I guess now, uh, you know, I mean it's
still early in his career, but as soon

we're going to be show halo Otani is shot.

I realized you don't keep up
with baseball, but I had to

throw that out because he's
being compared to base right now.

Well, he started as DH and this all-star
game just the other day and pitched, and

he's arguably the hottest baseball player
right now on the same team was the best

baseball player in the world right now.

And Mike trout.

So I have to throw

that

Trey: out.

I'm going to be completely honest.

A few weeks ago, we discovered I
couldn't name two basketball teams.

When you said that name, my
head was just like, indebt

Rolodex, just cycling through.

Wait, who was that?

In the low-key show?

I had no idea that was baseball.

Jude: And I was going to say,
friend, Daniel might be rolling

his eyes cause he's a red Sox fan.

So

Trey: listen, I keep friend
Daniel's eyes limber.

He's always rolling his eyes
and things that I have to say.

And with that being said, I think
that's a perfect time to jump into this.

So

Jude: yes, let's do

Trey: that.

So like we said, you're going to hear an
audio cue and on the other side it will

be fair game for all spoilers in the MCU.

We'll see you on the other side.

Wow.

So, of course we're really breaking this
down into the most important topics.

And the first one that we have up for
this episode is simply he who remains, you

know, I texted you whenever I started to
figure these out that like, there's no way

that we could start this episode without
just tackling the conquer in the room.

So this section is going to entail
with everything we learned about he

who remains in his place in this story.

So is there anywhere you'd like to begin,

Jude: I'm going to begin here.

I was, my notes actually said king,
instead of you who remains that

might, I feel like it might not be
accurate a hundred percent accurate.

Um, just, you know, cause it's,
you know, cause there's Marvel

in the MCU, but uh, yeah.

So my notes say king
all the way through it.

I thought first off, I think I
even mentioned in one episode

where I don't think that it would
be able to introduce a character.

Um, this late in the game, but they did.

And I thought they did it really well.

I think having the fact that it's
a variant, they were wide open to

do whatever they wanted with him.

I liked the way they portrayed
him and that kind of silly, goofy,

at least the way I took it, but
they're not the MCU, you know?

Oh, what's the director's name for Hitman.

The wasp paint.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like he's not though kind of cornered in
performance-wise, you know, they're not

cornered in just cause it's the variant.

And I think that's really brilliant.

I liked that they did that.

Trey: It, it, it makes me appreciate.

Cause we had questions about like, are
they cheating a little bit with catching

our low-key up to speed with all the
growth he had in the movies by showing

him at the beginning of episode one, it
was training us for this moment where we

get to meet the variant of king or he who
must be named he, who must be named man.

Harry

Jude: Porter.

We see a later

Trey: added to the list of all
the podcasts we need to create.

Oh, well you can see what I'm getting at.

Like it's.

They were training us from the beginning
and it made me appreciate that a lot more.

And, and to speak a little bit more.

I was right there in the camp with you.

I think whenever you mentioned that you
couldn't introduce somebody this late

in the game, I was completely wrong.

I mean, I wrote verbatim.

I can't believe they introduced
cane question mark, but it's

not enough that they did it.

It was the way they did it, like 10
minutes in this episode and he's just

sitting there and it's like, okay.

Like I was, I think in my
head, I just was going no way.

I can't believe this is how we're
getting introduced to this character.

And finally, just to, to go on a little
bit more, you're saying you mentioned him

kind of being goofy, kind of being aloof
a bit to me, the thing that I took away

from his performance, and this is a little
contradictory, but I think it fits, it's

like there's this subdued gravitas to him.

Like he is a larger than life.

But he's kind of bored of it.

And I think that also is
a strong echo of things.

We were feeling at the beginning
episodes with the TVA, they had this

huge power, but it was bureaucratic.

It was just kind of matter of fact.

And so I liked that consistent
drum beat from the creation to the

Jude: creator.

Yes.

Yes.

So I, you say that you get bored with it.

I think that's the other reason why
it works so well is Loki had that line

of like, you'd give up all this power
and while low-key had that growth,

you could still see where he did it.

You know, he's one of this power he's
had this ambition to rule and he's,

and his face was somebody who's got to
rule and he doesn't quite understand

someone wanting to need to give that up.

Um, although it would be interesting
if it was the other classic Loki

variant, you know, he would understand,
you know, that, that feeling.

Um, but, but that's cool.

Cause it's, it's, it kind of gives you a
sense of how long King's been doing that.

It also gives you a sense of.

The way they did that character,
our Loki's ultimate development.

And through this show,

Trey: you mentioned something
about why Kang worked for you.

That's very similar to something that
I was writing in my notes too, is I

think what makes it work for me is that
we spent an entire season witnessing

this incredible power of a dummy.

And instead of finding a mastermind,
we found someone who was weary.

And I think that's such a fascinating
direction to take such a huge power.

And it, again, like I said, it echoes
the flippancy of things we've said

in the earlier episode, but what I
didn't write in my notes, but you're

making me appreciate now is how
it was an echo of low-key as well.

And it helps reinforce.

The second thing I wrote after that, which
is power alone can not be the answer,

like whatever is going to be the solution.

Again, I keep talking about this
babe, Ruth shot of where we end up

with, um, surmounting this mountain.

It can't be just power alone
because we saw how he, who remained

Kang, whoever is bored of it.

So I'm very curious to see
where they go with that.

Jude: You know, the, the whole series I
kept talking about this wizard of Oz feel,

you know, like the time you project there,
this man behind the curtains, and we kind

of get that, but I actually, in my notes
put, this feels like the Santa Claus.

First, um, and I mentioned the wizard of
Oz, but this feels like the Santa Claus.

Cause he's, he's looking for a replacement
and that was the whole Tim Allen bit.

Right?

Like I'm looking for this replacement.

Uh, so yeah, I liked, you know, um,
yeah, it's, it's, that's the other

thing is to think of it as like this,
this time, Lord, that's more Dr.

Huish timed, you know, time, God
or whatever, but, but he is he's

he's th they, they were shocked.

He was like here, flesh and
blood, you know, and it makes

sense, like he wants to.

You know, it's the whole,
everything goes back to Dolan.

He can't want, you know, he
possibly wants to do this forever.

Right.

Trey: Always to

Jude: Nolan.

Speaking of Nolan, I
watched Tennant last night.

Oh yeah.

No quick thoughts Tuesday night.

Oh, I can't wait to watch it again.

Like I thoroughly enjoyed it and I feel
like after a couple of more watches,

like to really dive in, it's probably
one of my top Nolan films, but oh, wow.

Yeah, it was good.

Really impressed.

So, and just it's appropriate.

No one likes to mess with time.

So

Trey: very much so.

But getting back to the episode, I,
I want to speak about what you're

saying about finding the replacement.

Something that I found.

Very noteworthy is so much of this
season has been putting a punctuation

point on this idea that throughout
every reality, the thing that unites

Lokeys is their ability to survive.

They continue, they
persist, they don't give up.

I think what Kang find so fitting
for them to be his replacements

is I mentioned it last week.

That's gotta be a boost to your ego,
that you were such a nuisance to

the timeline, that there is a place
specifically for all your variants.

And I think, you know, I, I think there
is some truth to the nuisance, but I

think that's where king may have picked
up on this ability of the Lokeys.

And then it just became about
finding the right to which was

what, uh, you know, he lays out
front in front of Loki and Sylvie.

I don't know.

I just appreciate that connection,
whether it's a stretch or not,

uh, it just felt fitting as a
justification of why he chose them too.

Jude: No, that's, that's an excellent way.

I got, I didn't think about that.

That's an excellent way
to think of it, right.

Loki survive.

And he's getting all these Loki's here.

Cause they'll know he, I

Trey: mean, Hey, he keeps mentioning
that he's afraid of himself.

Like he has a lot of experience of
fighting multiple versions of themselves.

And so I think that's the fondness
that he finds in the Lokeys.

Jude: Right.

Well, and it's interesting because
some of them fought themselves.

We saw that.

Uh, but then some of them
found a way to get along.

Um, and ultimately, like I said,
we know they're going to survive.

That's what Loki's do.

Uh, and he has that line, like, like I
just paved the road and you walked it.

Right.

So in that sense, clearly.

I mean the mechanics of the show.

And if we're gonna, you know,
follow this and buy into it.

Yeah.

He's, he's searching for Loki's and
he's just pulling Loki's left and right.

Trying to find the right ones.

Yeah.

It is the Santa Claus.

Trey: I can't believe out of all
the movies you pick the Santa Claus.

Jude: Well, it's a Christmas.

It's fine.

Which you don't do Christmas.

Okay.

Trey: Well, I do Christmas.

I don't do Christmas movies.

There's a distinct difference.

And it's so funny because people
don't know what we're referencing

because that's a hidden MC you need
to know episode that never came out,

Jude: right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I remember that now.

Trey: That we prune that one.

We were the TVA of this.

Yes.

Jude: We, that episode got pruned,

Trey: you

Jude: know?

Okay.

So what's going to happen is I'm
going to get at least one or two

texts when they hear, see here's that.

And one of them for sure is going to
be from friend Daniel was like, what?

You're seeing you episode.

They got, they got pruned.

So,

Trey: and the reason he's going
to believe it exists is because

I'm admitting there's a movie.

I didn't see in it.

Oh man.

Getting back to the episode there
there's one more thing I want to

talk about here in this section.

And it's fascinating to me that there
are echoes of Thanos and he who remains.

And the thing that really kind of tipped
me off on that, other than, you know,

clearly the MCU is setting up their
next big, bad is there's a moment where

we see him get really passionate about
being the one to harness a life's power.

And it leads into this feeling of him.

Like I isolated the
timeline, I protected it.

I kept everybody safe and it,
it really feels like there's

this like, not jealousy.

Like he's just upset that despite all
the work he's doing, they still are.

What did he say?

They came to, to kill, uh, kill the devil.

What was that

Jude: line?

Yeah, they came to kill the devil.

I should've wrote it down.

No, no, no.

I got it.

You came to kill the devil, right?

Well guess what?

Yeah, I keep.

Right.

And if you think I'm evil, well,
just wait until you meet my variance.

Trey: Yeah.

And, and so the reason that reminds me of
Thanos is go back to end game when he's

having the big speech with the three,
three vendors of like, you know, I thought

I could give people peace and here you are
still trying to revert things back to it.

So I'm just going to start from scratch.

Like he was genuinely upset.

And I think to see that here.

He who remains it reflects that
statement of him being tired, because

I think one of the things that I felt
is that it feels so arbitrary that this

moment where he's giving the choice
to low-key and Sylvie is this is the

moment that he would cease to know.

But I think it hints at that lack of
appreciation that he's feeling from

the universe because he's resigning,
you know, what does it matter to

him if his work continues, if people
continue to fight against free will.

And so I think that's a
really strong echo of that.

Jude: Okay.

You just said, if people continue,
continues to fight against freewill

Trey: contradictory a bit,

Jude: well, I'm just wondering
if you mean, if you're calling

he, who remains or case.

Freewill in a similar way Ramona
does, or if you meant, or if you

meant that they're fighting for free
will to like, for them to have it.

Trey: So I guess this speaks to the
way that I view the timeline, because

it's, we continue to see there are
potentials for the timeline to.

And that's the purpose of the TVA
is they come in and they, they

force it back into one timeline.

And I view the fight against free
will not necessarily being a knowing

thing, but, or there's a select few
of people who know that they're doing

it clearly with Loki and Sylvie.

They've reached this point where
they're fighting against it, but with

all the infinite possible realities,
I'm I, I know how I'm sounding,

I'm going to push through it of all
the infinite possible realities.

It's it's like Kang is realizing
the, the futility of it.

If that makes sense.

I don't know if I'm explaining the
question a little bit more, but okay.

Jude: No, no, no, no, no, no.

I'm okay.

Let me tell you back what I
think I heard you say Kenya's

Tyler King is tired because.

Content constantly pruning all
the variations to this one.

Timeline starts to become, feel
feudal if you tile forever.

Okay.

Um, and so he's fighting against
people's or whatever, in this

timeline's free will to maintain the
timeline and he's tired and evil,

like Sylvie and our Loki is fighting
against Kane to have free choice so to

Trey: speak.

Right.

Okay.

Yeah.

That's a lot more concise at what I
was getting at, so I appreciate that.

Jude: Alright.

Well, cause, cause you know, I'll talk
about this a little bit more when we get

to Ramona and Mobius, but the way you
said it, it sounded like you were naming

Kane, like giving him the title of, well,

Trey: no, I didn't mean it that way.

I think.

I wish there was any, like
I have no, let me try this.

See, just

Jude: makes sense.

I mean, that's why I was just
checking, but yeah, but I would, I

understand what you're trying to say.

Trey: Yeah.

It's like, he's trying to force
something that can't happen.

And at a certain point he just
is like, I'm done with it.

Yeah.

Jude: There's a lot of things that can
relate to real life to that, but okay.

I'll just leave it at that and let it
people listening, fill in the gaps.

Trey: Yeah.

I don't know if it's telling me the
first thing that was coming to mind

was trying to push magnets together.

Jude: Well,

Trey: if there's any more, I
think we can move on to the next

Jude: section.

Uh, yeah, let's do that.

Yeah, let's do that.

Okay.

So

Trey: the next section is
entitled finding free will.

So this is going to encompass everything
with Brovana and Mobius and the B

15 subplot of them exposing Ramona's
variant to the other minute men.

So starting,

Jude: I, I don't know what the,
you just said, finding free will.

And for some reason, the image of
the DVD free really, you bought

me just came, popped in my head.

Trey: I'm so bummed.

You didn't get the note because
it wouldn't have been perfect.

And just like in case people forgot it's
let's hope low-key doesn't truck this up.

Oh man.

Anyway, uh, in this topic, uh,
starting with me this time.

I wanted to circle in on this.

I think it's pretty clear now that Ramona
has known about being a variant for a

long time and explains why she kept that
pin of the high school she worked at.

And the thing I wanted to
follow that up with is.

Last week, I believe with Rob, we
talked about how Moebius buried

himself in the work, and I don't
think he's ever known, but I think

he knew something wasn't right.

And because of that, that's why
we saw him be so dedicated to the

work fast forward to this episode.

And we see that Ramona does
know, but she exclaims.

It can't be for nothing.

It just makes her character feel a
little bit more tragic of her trying

to just cling on to any, any sense that
what she was doing wasn't for nothing.

And I can't say that a character who
says only the person in charge deserves

to have free will is sympathetic.

But I understand her a little
bit more now and it, I don't

know, it was just sad to see

Jude: her character go
playing off of something.

You just said, my note Mobius
returns to Ramona, Ramona

needs her life to have meaning.

So she continued, right?

Like he's, he's like, this is fake.

How can you keep doing this?

And like you said, she's
looking for this purpose.

If it's, if you're right.

And I, and I want to say you are
actually, you know, it makes sense that

she had the trophies use that specific
pin because she knew she was a variant.

I also, it makes me wonder, what does
that say about the life she left, that

she figured it out and still stuck with
this as this gave, it gave her purpose.

And I'm really curious of,
you know, that's just an

extra layer to that character.

That's you?

Try to add depth, or if that
was a planted seed that we're

going to get to see it somewhere.

Trey: Yeah.

It's I think we we've, we've
touched on it a couple of times.

I, I think futility is among the themes
that this show keeps exploring, uh,

throughout the entirety of this season.

And I wonder if it speaks and I'm reaching
in the dark here, cause we obviously

don't have enough techs to go on this,
but I wonder if it's because of the

futility of realizing you are no longer
part of the world you thought you were,

and now you're in the TVA that they
just found purpose in going along with

what was presented in front of them.

Yeah, it'll be, I mean, maybe it's
something we see, continue to explore.

Uh, and in the future.

Jude: Yeah.

I will say this.

I have the thought, but
we'll leave it for next week.

Um, I'm curious if, uh, season two,
we'll get the same, a number of episodes.

Yeah.

Um, because I feel like, like there's
a lot of questions that we just brought

up again, we'll save the bulk of this
for next week's pod, but I think they

have a lot of opportunities here to
answer those questions about the TV.

Yeah.

Trey: And, and for those who may
not know, we always have a wrap

up episode of, uh, the series.

So we'll be, we'll be continuing
some of those bigger questions there.

You know, one more thing that I
wanna to add to this Ramona idea of

being a little bit more relatable
is again, want to be careful.

I don't want to be sympathetic for
somebody who has that viewpoint of only

the person in charge gets free will, but I
do love that if we can draw this parallel

between Mobius and Ramona in the way that
they buried it, Their insecurities, I

guess, in the work that we get a moment
where Ramona's like, no, you betrayed me.

Like, it made so much sense that if
she was clinging on to anything and

the things she clinged onto was the TVA
and then found comfort in somebody else

who did the same thing to have them
then turn after their crisis of faith.

It's like, yeah, I totally see
where Ramona's coming from now.

So I liked that moment a lot too.

There was a part

Jude: of me, Ramona said, you know, so
they had that conversation and Ramona

says, freewill, only as you said, only one
person gets freewill the one in charge.

Uh, I that's where I thought you
were naming king or he who must be,

who remains almost a quarter thing.

He who remained.

Um, that's what I thought you
were naming him as free will.

Um, I don't, again, I've, I've tried
to really stay off the philosophical.

Wrote, I'd like to talk about
thinking about it philosophically.

Yes.

But like to dive too far down
the road in that line was the

only one person gets freewill.

The one in charge in some way.

She's not a hundred percent
wrong on that thought.

You know?

I mean, when you start talking
about will like my ability to act.

And you think about to truly do that
freely unencumbered or not being coerced.

She's not a hundred percent wrong on that.

And the idea of within the context
of what the, what the show, uh, well,

philosophically thinking about it
and the illogical thinking about it,

but also even the context of the,
of what the MCU has given us know.

So I did, I found that interesting.

Um, you know, that, that line,
uh, there, uh, there's also, you

know, she said Ian's a friendship.

Um, I believe that was her, right?

That wasn't Mobius.

Trey: Yeah.

Yeah.

She, I think she said you

Jude: throw away.

Yeah.

He owns a friendship.

Yeah.

Also made me wonder how long has
she actually been a part of the TVA?

Yeah.

You know, and, and I, I liked it because
it also, I think, added to this idea of.

You know, he, who remains as being
tired and just thinking of like

how long she's been doing this.

Trey: Yeah.

It's, it's definitely up in the
air, at least for me, the context

of time with, with which those who
were in the TVA are working with.

Um, cause I mean, like even low-key
I think calls it out last episode

where he's like, how long has it been
a week since I was just in New York?

Like, this has been a very like
hectic time for him, but we, we don't

know what that time is, but right
now I think that's a rabbit hole.

Jude: Yeah.

Now when she says in search of
free will, right before she leaves.

Yeah.

Um, my thought was in other
words, king, but at that point

it should have been obvious.

We're getting a second season
because you're not entering

a character arc that way.

You've never seen that character
again, like right there.

It should have been obvious

Trey: to circle back to that moment.

You know, to speak to what I was
feeling with that you talked about,

um, uh, the various different
ways, like, uh, she's not wrong.

The way I felt about that scene
is I immediately thought of.

The moment we're Sylvie and Loki
are in the throne room and they

realized that the timekeepers are
fake and low-key just is exasperated.

And he's like, oh, it never ends.

Like, there's always
something on top of the next.

And it's just a continuous
road of something more.

And so when I heard Ramona say in
search of free, will it made me feel

like it was a power grab for her to be
in the place of whoever went well, we

didn't know what it, well, we didn't
know it, but basically she's going

for the throne is what I took that as.

Yeah.

Jude: So, well, you know what,
they could play it that way.

Um, they can play that way from a couple
of different ways, um, from just have

a very vague idea of her character, but
Ramona rinse layer, uh, from the comic, I

think they could easily play it that way.

Um, and just from the standpoint
of she's the only one we saw.

Through when we had that flashback
of Sylvie being picked up of having a

promotion from being hunter to, I guess,
whatever her job was at that point.

So in that way, if she is herself
trying to, I want purpose and I'm,

and this is giving me purpose.

And work their way up, you know, to meet
the timekeeper himself and, and all that,

that tracks, it could be in search of
freewill in search of being in charge.

Trey: Again, I'm getting a little
far ahead because we don't know

there's no context, but it's, it
feels like an echo of the tragedy

of king to where she thinks this is.

What's going to bring her closure.

When we saw what happened to king,
he eventually gets tired of it.

It makes me think back to what I wrote.

Power cannot be the answer.

So I'm very curious to see
what they're going to do

here.

Jude: Yeah.

You know what?

You brought up the I'm going
to backtrack just a little bit.

You brought up this connection to king and
Thanos and it didn't, it didn't grasp it.

There's this thought until just
now, as you were saying that, um,

interestingly enough, like Kane, I
keep going back and forth is that

he who remains her king it's he?

Who is king?

Um, is he, who is Kay.

Uh, well, you also got the
sense of, he didn't do this out

of seeking power necessarily.

You know, if we're, if we're to believe
his story, he did this because you know,

this is what was best for everything.

So it was kind of a sacrifice
idea, you know, in a similar way,

Santos was, I'm doing this for
the good of everybody, you know?

Um, whereas if Vona to, to circle it back
to her vagina for Vona is, is that's her

play is a power play to take over, you
know, it's two very different ideas of

why you ended up there, you know, where,
you know, he, who is king, is there out

of what he believed to be a necessity to
end war and have peace where hers is a.

Purpose driven, power driven, you know,
play and that's assuming you're right.

And I, and I, and I think it would be
fun to explore that in terms of when

he says I'm searching for free will.

That's what she's trying to search

Trey: for.

No, that's a good catch, uh, there,
because there is distinct, uh,

motivations here between their place.

So, yeah, that's a, that's a very good
catch sticking with this section though.

Uh, I do want to speak a
little bit about Mobius there.

Isn't too much to go on again.

I think he had such a complete arc
for this season last episode that

there really wasn't too much more
that you could do with them here.

So, uh, all I really have to
say is that I just hope we get

more Moebius here in the future.

There I'd be shocked.

Well, the thing that I feel,
yeah, I'm just going to go

ahead and rip this bandaid off.

I don't know if we've set it out, right.

So you can correct me.

We have, we're getting a season two.

Like, I don't know if we've said that in
this episode, but there is, there is a

recognition that things will continue.

Um, so I'm hoping in that case that yeah,
Mobius does come back, but it feels like

whenever the MCU gets these big name
actors, the reason they're able to get

them in is because it's a one-off thing.

I'm hoping that's not the
case here with Wilson.

Jude: Yeah.

I don't think so.

Only because you know, I'm scrolling
through Facebook and I see a sponsored

ad cause you know, Facebook, Facebook,
and because it's my Facebook, it's a

sponsored ad for a comic book convention.

And it's about Owen Wilson.

Show it up.

And it's his first one.

Uh, I believe that was

Trey: totally unintentional by the way,

that was 100%

Jude: somebody had to do it.

Right.

Since he didn't get to

Trey: see you create a void,
somebody takes the place.

Jude: Yeah.

So, so yeah, so like, I just feel like,
you know, that's an indicator that yeah.

He'll be around for season two.

I hope so.

Maybe even Dr.

Strange

Trey: man, that'd be wild.

Jude: Well, cause I think,
I think they confer.

Today or yesterday afternoon that
Loki is going to show up in Dr.

Strange.

So that'll be really interesting.

So even if it's just a cameo, it's
possible, you know what, until we see him

on a jet ski, his arc is not complete.

Trey: Yeah.

That's the line in the sand that we're
drawing here, but now start circling

back to what I wanted to say is.

Uh, what little I was able to get out of
the scenes of the Mobius is there is so

much righteous anger in his voice, or when
he speaking to is like, you know, my,

my, my standards are a little bit higher
than yours, as much as I'd like to burn

you, you know, I, I don't want to do that.

And he was just controlling
all that, that feeling.

And I think it speaks to his character
that even after justifiably, we could

probably root for him, pruning Ramona.

He still trying to help her.

And I liked that nugget that we got out.

The Mobius has scenes this episode.

Jude: I wonder, what are they.

Somehow connected before
becoming variants.

Trey: I, I really, I really want to go
out on that limb and say yes, because

I thought I thought the pin and I can't
remember where I picked up this theory.

It could be from other podcasts or
the sub Reddit, but I thought the pin

was going to be like, the moment it
clicks for Mobius, where he realizes

he was a teacher in a past life or
something with that high school.

And I was genuinely shocked.

It was her Vona I think you might
be onto something that if we

find out that he was there too.

Jude: Yeah, I bet.

So because it had such a
strong connection, you know?

Yeah.

I'm fighting my urge.

Cause I've always, I've said on this
podcast a number of times that I'm not a

big, like shipping people kind of thing.

And so I like, like, I'm trying
to fight that urge of like, like,

is there, is there enough in
text thing to actually say that.

That is their backstory and
Raleigh, what we'll get to see,

or am I just wishful thinking it?

Trey: Mm, there is.

I don't know if I were to go in the,
the, the shipping category, but there

is definitely a strong connection
because I mean, what I was going to

say is like, they keep saying Ian's
a friendship and I know outside the

context of the timeline and in the
TVA time is a very nebulous concept.

So who knows how long they've been doing
this, but I think it's also the show

kind of hinting at like, oh, they've
they are connected even before this.

So I don't know.

I, I don't know.

I guess, I guess that's my answer, right?

Yeah.

Jude: Well, we'll have to wait and see.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right.

They keep bringing us back.

Trey: I know.

I just want to make the podcast, right.

So yeah, one last thing that I wanted
to bring up in this section is.

Uh, you know, I, I do
find it a little funny.

Like I'm glad it happened
because it's a great moment.

But when B 15 lures, the other minute men
into discovering a Ramona's variant, it

did feel a little odd that they're willing
to prune an entire universe just to make

a, a point for a few of them to see.

Yeah.

Jude: See, I didn't read it that way.

Like at this point, I'm not
sure Moebius and B 15 prunes

that prunes, that universe,

Trey: just to add to that
caveat, like to add a caveat.

I know we're moments away
from the multi-verse breaking.

Cause we know what happens with
Sylvia and low-key, but in there from

their perspective, like, it felt like
that's what they were gambling with.

But I see your read on that as well.

Jude: I understand what you're saying.

They're gambling with
because that's clearly.

Like the only way you find B
15 is that's creating a branch.

But at this point, I don't know if
Moebius knowing what he knows and knowing

what she knows would prune that brand,

Trey: I guess, for my, my perspective.

And I, I, I'm probably getting the weeds
here is what do you do with that person

who has witnessed this militia type come
in and start spouting about the timeline

and how, you know, they're variants?

Like, what is their life like now?

Jude: Well, maybe it shows that's
just how much they don't like Ravenna.

They want to ruin her life here.

Um, already, you know, it's

Trey: a never ending cycle.

Maybe that's why the original

Jude: revote have found comfort.

You know what, that's why
you gotta be nice to people.

Cause you never know when they're going to
be very into join the TVA and come back.

At some random time in your life
and you're going to find out that

it's all just a simulation tray.

Gotcha.

Trey: Right before you got to that
point, I was just about to say,

I'm assuming we're going to be
doing this podcast for a long time.

I need a book of Jude
wisdoms from the inside.

This is why you have to be nice to people.

You never know where they're
going to be American.

Jude: No, I can turn into a phone and come
back and get you, send you down a line.

That's it.

That's it.

If I have any trouble with students,
I'm just going to say, I'm going

to, I'm going to, I'm going to
prune you and send you to a liar.

That's that's what I'm gonna

Trey: do.

You should get like a mock prune stick.

Like, you know how some teachers will
like tap on a desk and people's attention.

You just pop that out and tap on the desk.

Right?

Oh man.

Well, unless we've got any more
to say, uh, I think we can move

into the next section, right?

Jude: Sounds like a plan.

So

Trey: perfect.

So this section is called the choice
and this is going to be dealing with

everything with king laying out before
Loki and Sylvie, the possibility that

they could either kill him and unleash
him multi-verse or take over for him

and rule the one sacred timeline.

So we're back to you.

Is there any place we'd like.

Jude: I think this is where I want
to start the cause there's a lot

of, there's a lot to this section.

Cause it, cause this, this episode
was very much like episode three,

it was very dialogue driven.

Um, in fact my note says, um, this episode
mirrors episode three in particular, the

moment at the door when they're trying
to figure out what to do and Sylvie's

expecting Loki's advice and he's gonna
kind of watching her lead, whereas they

both wanted to lead when it was at that,
that, uh, door and momentous, you know?

And so I really liked how
that mirrored each other.

And also for me, the read I got out of it,
Sylvie, I think was, you know, she's like

I've been working for this all my life
and give me a minute, the way I read that

when she was struggling already with this.

Okay.

Then what?

Like I've been doing this all
my life and when I what's next.

You know, what, what happens next?

And.

And I mean, I mean, her
motivation has vengeance.

Right, right.

And we see that a lot.

Like when you finally get your
vengeance, you've been driven and

consumed by it for so much, then
you get this what's next feeling.

Right.

And you, and you're left
with this emptiness.

And I think immediately.

Very early in the episode.

That's what Sylvie, that's how I took it.

She was wrestling with that and it pairs

Trey: so well with last episode,
where again, I mentioned that

it was a punctuation point on
Loki's growth as well, and that we

would see a shift towards Sylvie.

You know, Loki has the moment last week
where he's like, you know, then I can

rule and then I'll finally be happy.

Like he's, he understands that that's
not, what's going to bring him closure.

And it is very, I didn't pick up on it.

And I'm glad that you are spotlighting
it here about it being the start of the

struggle for Sylvie, but it, it just
makes it that much more heartbreaking

to know that she, you know, we see by
the end, she couldn't get past that

driven by revenge feeling and to see
her struggle with the beginning as hard.

Yeah.

Jude: So what do you think of king here?

And I know he hasn't been introduced yet.

Ms.

Minot shows up says once, once the offer.

Yeah.

And I was curious, like, just note taking,
you know, in order does that, because

he's afraid of what the two of them are
capable of or is this just a trick, right?

Then he appeals to their desires.

You can be together, you can rule,
we'll put you back on the timeline.

You can, you know, have the
infinity gauntlet, you can

kill Thanos, all of this stuff.

I I'm a little confused.

I'm not confused.

I can progression to
the story, I get that.

Right.

But then as we learned, king knew
that they weren't going to take that.

Um, so, so in that sense, there's one
or two ways I can, I can go with that.

A it's just the story, right?

And we're, re-introducing Ms.

Smith.

Um, and don't think too hard about it,
or he who must be king, maybe had a hope

that they would stray and take the deal.

Like he was looking for
a replacement anyways.

And if he knew, cause he
pulled out the script, right.

He knew what was going to
happen up to a certain point.

Maybe he was genuinely given
him that option with the

hope that they would take it.

Even knowing that he wouldn't.

Trey: You know, I I'm right there
with you because that was one of

the things I wrote down too, is that
it's interesting that the first test

that Loki and Sylvia have is that Ms.

Minutes, TIMPs them with
everything they've ever wanted

and they make it pass that test.

But it doesn't make sense
because miss minutes is

essentially an extension of king.

And if he knows everything and
knows that they would get to him,

what's the purpose of tempting them?

The answer that I have, whether
it's his suffice or not, is he

has that line when he is straight
up talking to low-key and Sylvie.

And he says, you know, oh, you
know, you can't just get to the end.

You have to go through it all for this
moment for our quest here at the end.

Right.

So I think almost in the same way that Dr.

Strange wasn't entirely sure they were
right in the right universe whenever he

tells Tony, if I tell you it won't happen,
This was King's final proving ground for

this being the low-key and Sylvie that
he needed to offer them the position of.

The sacred timeline

Jude: keeper.

Yeah.

That's a good way to think of it.

That's a good way to think of it.

Yeah.

Um, you know, I mean that Kwan
that's a quandary or that,

that gets wrestled with a lot.

Uh, this whole, I think I mentioned
it episode one, this whole idea for

knowledge, you know, what is this?

You get this whole, what's the balance
between some, someone like king and

being like king or whatever, uh, that
has all this knowledge, but yet, you

know, up until that point, Loki thought
of himself as having free will and you

know, and, and you get that, the big
thing that, that they wrestled with

in episode one and came back, right.

This predestination and in free.

And, and I, and I mentioned earlier,
yeah, the, the only, the one in

charge, so to speak is my podcast.

And you can't see the air
quotes that I just did.

Um, but they're there.

So just imagine, you know, um, you
know, is that tension of they know

everything and the idea is, you
know, like, you know what they're

going to do, but you're hopeful and
giving them a choice and that they're

going to choose something different.

Um, and so, and so that's, that's
kind of the way I went with.

You know, the, like he was hopeful that
they, that they would make that choice.

Um, but I think your reads much better.

Well, I mean, it fits, it fits better.

Story-wise and, and, you know,
and story circle wise and stuff.

Um, I think, I think mine might
be a little bit more philosophical

or ideologically bent than
story-wise if that makes sense.

No, that

Trey: makes sense.

Yeah, it's just, it's hard because
you can get a little too meta with

this, because think back to the bonus
episode we did with Rob and Jamison

Jamison pointed out so wonderfully
that at the end of the day, these are

written by someone, you know, there is
a predetermined right need to get there.

So we're trying to exist in the space of
quote unquote, what really happened versus

what really happened in the writers room.

So it's like you can get in these
infinite loops of, of rabbit holes.

No.

And

Jude: I'm glad you brought that up.

Yeah.

I'm glad you brought that back up.

Trey: You know, I talked about
the, uh, episode last week is the

one that broke me and helped me
start to really zone in Jamison.

Might've been the first domino push
helped me get to getting out of

Jude: the weekend.

I'll make, I'll make sure he knows that.

Yeah.

Trey: Oh man, you know, sticking
in this section of the choice.

Uh, another thing that I wanted to circle
in on was this interaction between Loki

and Kang, where Loki straight up asks
him, then what are you so afraid of?

And it builds into that moment
where it's just like a silent

contemplation and Kang just goes me.

And we've talked about it so many times
throughout the entirety of these Disney

plus series, you know, there's nothing
scarier than seeing what scares the

person you're afraid of and getting this
insight of Kang, being very concerned

about the idea of his other less than
pleasant variants is it's humbling.

And I think they've done such a
great lead-up to this idea of the

multi-verse with the way that we've seen.

Multiple low keys and they've played
around and educated us that it lands so

wonderfully, at least for me, that he, who
remains is afraid of other versions of it.

Jude: Well, and I think, I think Loki
is in a unique position to have that

conversation because he is encountered
multiple versions of himself.

And, and I think that's what helped
make, I mean, Loki says like they Loki

and Sylvia have this conversation.

He's like, you believe him.

And he's like, look, he's a liar.

And so am I, and I, and, and so he's
like, I, I know a liar when I see one

and he's not lying kind of idea, but
also that response of, um, those other

variants of myself and I'm afraid of them.

Loki.

I mean, you saw when we talked
about the look on Loki's face,

when president low-key came in and
betrayed boastful low-key and then

resident Loki's army for char retrade,
president low-key and just the look

on their face and that realization
of like, man, am I really like this?

And so him being able to see
and what he could be, right.

The potential in classic low-key
I'm gonna throw it out there.

The potential of
alligator low-key as well.

Um, you know, like, like, I mean, he's
alligator, Loki's pretty chill, right.

Trey: Um, you know, just
bit of handoff, but yeah,

Jude: chill.

Hey, I'm going to sit here in my tub
of water, doing what I need to do.

And sometimes that
means biting off a hand.

Um, just saying, uh,
but no, like he's more

Trey: Jude wisdoms,

Jude: but yeah, he gets
to, he gets to see that.

So, so in that way, I really liked that
they paired that conversation together

because, because it's believable,
like, man, he's I saw my variant.

That was terrible.

Trey: And you know, his leverage
against Sylvia and low-key with

this idea of multiple versions
of him, he's, he's resigned.

He doesn't care if they kill
them because some other version

of him will end up back right.

Where he is and things get back to normal
or, you know, they carry on his work.

So he's not, he's not worried
about that, but he does want it.

If you kill me, there are, there are
far worse versions of me to have to

deal with, and there's no justification
for it because I, again, his, his

philosophy of there can only be
one timeline it's just plain wrong.

But, you know, I hinted in the
pre spoiler section that this

is the MCU bay brew thing.

They're shot when I'm imagining
and a metagame and a lot here, I'm

imagining at some point we're going
to get a securing of the freewill

and staving off a multi-verse war.

And this is, this is that seed that I was
talking about, that we can, we can trace

back of making it that much more rewarding
when we finally do, because they have set

up this idea of it's almost the futility
of like what choice they have here.

There's always going to be a worse king.

It just, it makes the potential for
what's to come that much more exciting.

Yeah.

Jude: Another thing that
I really like that we.

Did here calling the section the choice.

Um, there's okay.

So I'm gonna kind of split some ideas.

I have some thoughts that go with
this and I'm gonna leave for stray

thoughts because I made a promise
to myself to not get too bogged

down into the mechanics of the show.

Right.

And just enjoy it.

But he says, king says we crossed,
we just crossed the threshold.

Right?

Yeah.

And he says, I don't know
what's going to happen.

I haven't known for the past 6, 7,
8, 9, 10 seconds, which within the

mechanics and rules of the show, Loki
and Sylvie, when they have the choice

are truly exercising free will because,
you know, if king was, you know, he,

who D we're not going to use his name,
but remains, um, knew everything, but

then ran out of that knowledge then.

Yeah.

Like he has no idea what they're
going to do and it's truly a choice.

And I really liked it.

That they found a way the writer show
runner found a way to, well, we've

mentioned that, um, I don't remember
if it was on pod or off pod when

we were talking with Robin Jamison.

And we mentioned that back in episode
one, this whole idea, what it was on bond.

Cause you just brought it up with
Jamison said to, to an extent we

know it's predetermined because it's
written like a metal, but they did it.

They, they found a really clever way
to take that element out, you know?

Cause cause whatever locator, silvery,
it doesn't matter who kills Cain.

If you haven't removed that
for knowledge from cane.

Yeah, it doesn't feel as weighty.

It doesn't feel like even the person
who knows everything doesn't know in

this moment what's about to happen.

Uh, and, and, and I, I really liked that
they were able to do that and set that up

Trey: and playing off that.

Yeah.

I think what makes it work so
well is because he doesn't know.

And they made such a big deal of,
oh, we've crossed the threshold.

And they did such incredible
work of like zooming in, on him

watching the fear in his face.

And then it changes to giddiness if
they didn't do such a great job of

establishing, you know, I mentioned
the boredom with all the power and

all that knowledge and the, the
weariness of having all of that.

I don't think this moment works as well as
it does because he is genuinely giddy and

excited, especially once Sylvia and Loki
start fighting because he doesn't know.

And, and, you know, I imagine if I had
access to all knowledge of all time,

and that was just at my fingertips,
I would become numb to it too.

And so this moment we're in breaks
for him is just so wonderful.

Yeah,

Jude: I, I, my note was
king had a sense of relief.

Like you can get this sense of relief
and he picked up that object and tested

it and dropped it like, you're right.

You said giddy, but you know,
um, yeah, it, it was really man.

They did a lot with this,
with this character.

And just one episode,

Trey: you know, we already had the
section or we talked about he who

remains, I don't know if we said it.

Jonathan majors is amazing in this role.

He, I mean, he essentially shoulders
the entire episode because so

much of it is him in conversation.

Yeah.

And you're just to echo what
you're saying, they're doing

so much in this episode.

Jude: Oh, what is the show
that he's in love craft?

Have you seen

Trey: that?

No, but it's immediately skyrocketed
to my, probably won't watch that.

Jude: That was a dumb question
on my part, but there's never,

you never know, like there's

Trey: a chance, just a bit of context.

This isn't a Dishon Jonathan majors.

The probably won't watch list says more
about me than the quality of the show.

Oh yes.

Jude: Well, and I haven't seen it.

My wife hasn't seen it while my wife.

Um, I read that over
spring break just recently.

Um, you know, and the book is I've
learned that reading books and buying

books are two separate hobbies.

Um, and I'm definitely in the buying.

Yeah.

And I'm not as good of a
reader as I used to be.

Uh, and that book is sitting there and
I'm, and I'm gonna keep eyeing it of like,

I was going to actually read some of it
yesterday and I chose to be responsible.

And I started reading my textbook
for next year, but yeah, but I need

to start reading more and that's,
that's like right there sitting

on the shelf and so she's read it.

So that's.

Trey: I'll get to it eventually along with

Jude: code wars and bad batch
and the SIM Simpsons, listen,

Trey: listen, there's a lot
fighting for my attention.

It's hard to know, you know, it feels
like we're about to start talking

about the confrontation between Sylvia
and Loki in this choice section.

So I do want to say this before we move
into that, you know, I talked about

earlier, how there's this feeling that
I'm picking up on from king about being.

Fed up with people not
appreciating his work.

There, there's a moment where Kang
has an outburst against Sylvie and he

straight up calls her a hypocrite one.

He's like, you know,
you're a hypocrite grow up.

And like, he just lobbies insults at her.

It's ironic that he tells
her to grow up when he's the

reason she couldn't peacefully.

Like all of this is is happening
because she, he took away her

ability to live a normal life.

So to have that thrown back
in her face one, I can imagine

what that feels like for her.

And two, it's an insight into his
worldview of like, I don't even think

he appreciates the level of what he's
doing to these innocent universe.

Jude: Well, no, it goes, it goes back
to your, your theonomous comparison.

It's you're not appreciating
what I did in staving.

All this multi-verse
multi-vessel war right now.

So yeah, so it's but I mean, you're right.

Like he clearly did.

Have any empathy for what he's done.

Yeah.

So that you're right.

You're a hundred

Trey: percent right on that.

Yeah.

And, and to circle back, there's one
more moment I forgot to bring up earlier

is if we see there's a moment where
king is serving them coffee or tea or

something, and he's being incredibly
cordial, but in that hospitality,

he brings one of the cups to locate
and he's like, low-key and he brings

another one to Sylvie and he goes Loki.

And he seems to emphasize it a lot.

And it speaks to, he thinks he's doing
the right thing, but that disregard for

the individuality of these two distinct
characters is very telling about who is.

Jude: And it helped me out is this,
after they crossed the threshold,

Trey: the moment I talked about
was before the threshold, that's

why I was circling back to it.

The hypocrite I believe is after

Jude: the threshold, right?

This one, talk about the hypocrite
hypocrite, because that's that's.

The other thing is I have a note that says
how freeing that must be for king to let

someone else decide his fate, rather than
deciding, deciding the fate of others.

But that's also maybe
part of his reaction.

He's so used to people
making the decisions.

He has paved the way for them.

And now that he doesn't know what they're
going to do, you know, his expectations

are you're, you should do this.

And so he's like, no, I'm not gonna,
and, and he doesn't know how to

Trey: handle that.

It's like arguing with a toddler

Jude: and yeah, not just, it's not
just toddler stray, not just toddlers.

Trey: It feels a little

Jude: pointed, not shows you.

Okay.

Oh man, all the teacher
listeners are nodding their head.

Trey: You steer that course.

I want to dive into it, but obviously
that's your fate more than mine.

Jude: I still tell my juniors a
story of like one year I had two

juniors in my class, get in a
fight over a chair, over a desk.

And I'm like, why?

I'm like, come on, man.

Y'all are juniors.

It's like literally two
nights ago, my kids who were.

You know, younger than they are now.

It's, they're, they're really young.

It's like they fought, they
fought over her chair at dinner.

Like, that's my shit.

What are y'all doing?

Y'all are 68 and 70.

It still happens.

Trey: I'm far removed from school.

At this point.

I have no recollection of a chair
ever being fight worthy in any

of this schools that I attended.

You're

Jude: saying it still happens.

And you know what, I'm sure you know, I
say that, but at the same time, I'm sure

that's, that's the one realization I have.

I'm sure I was no different as a student.

Oh

Trey: man.

All right.

Well getting back to the episode,
uh, I, you know, I talked about it.

It feels like one of the last things
we have to talk about here is the

confrontation between Loki and Sylvie.

And the first thing I wrote down is this
has to be the worst breakup of all time.

Right?

Nothing else.

It'd be interesting.

The track through all media, how many
devastating breakups there have been?

Well,

Jude: and we also, because of the
nature of the TVA, they could have been

together five minutes and they could
have been together a hundred years.

So we have no idea.

Trey: Oh really?

But no, I it's.

I think the thing I, I came away from
this confrontation is that it's so

heartbreaking that we see Loki grow
from where he did in the movies.

And then go beyond that, by understanding,
knowing why he did what he did and why it

was wrong and is still betrayed by someone
he truly and selflessly cared about.

And it's, I dunno, it was just really,
really hard to watch this final scene.

Jude: You know what this was.

I think the best fight scene to
choreography wise, because, because the

choreography in this fight in this, it
had a purpose and not just like, oh,

you know, we have to have a fight scene.

Cause it's the finale.

But even the moves and the way they
fought with each other and the things

they did all told the story of the two
of them, because neither one, like they

were both in at least my watch of it, you
know, and I'm not a sword fighter, but it

felt very defensive from both ends know.

They didn't really feel like
either one of them was really

trying to get at each other.

Trey: It's like that moment in
civil war when Natasha and Clint

are fighting and they're like,
Hey, we're still friends, right?

Yeah.

Well, it depends on how hard you hit me.

Like, that's the same level of
emotions that are wrapped up in this.

And I'm so glad you brought
up the fight because like,

that's what I wrote down too.

I enjoy this fight scene a lot
more than any of the other ones.

And it's because there are
emotional stakes attached to it.

And I think it is important to note what
you said, that there's a purpose and

they're telling a story through the fight.

And I think paired that with
the emotion and it just makes

all the difference in the world.

You know, what it honestly reminded
me of, and I hope that this

doesn't defeat the purpose of it.

It reminded me of the fight between Obi
one and Anacon a lot in the prequels.

Because it's that wrapped up of the
emotional stakes, but to getting them and,

and like, for as much as I don't like the
prequels, I did like that fight a lot.

And I just, I was, I don't know.

I would just recalling that fight
when I was watching this one as well.

Well, you know, and as much as
we've been, what would say Duncan on

Jude: star, as you say, what
would say the prequels for you is

finishing the clone wars, but okay.

Oh my God.

I'm just saying it makes, it
makes those, it fills up the move

what's missing in the movies.

It makes them better.

Trey: We've got on so many tangents,
but I'm going to say this real quick.

This is a slight game of throne
spoilers, but it season one.

So everybody's seen it at this point.

I had a friend who I was like, dude,
you should really watch game of Thrones.

This is so up your alley.

And he told me, he's like,
nah, unless there's dragons

in it, I don't want to see it.

And since this was season one and they
weren't part of the promotional material,

I was torn between like spoiling it
for him or not spoiling it for him.

But I totally understand what you
mean about like it's, you would

love this and you're just not doing

so for all the people who
want me to watch star wars.

I understand.

Jude: Yeah.

Well, and I go back to
the fight real quick.

Something that low-key did right there
at the last minute, the very last thing

low-key puts himself between him and Kane.

Right.

And if I remember right, he
wasn't armed and it just, you

saw, we saw it in civil war.

We saw it in winter soldier.

We see it in return to the jet.

I, this whole.

Getting away from, and that's, I think
the distinction between Loki and Sylvie

and what, the growth that we've seen
of low-key and, and it's low-key right.

That's who we expected to follow.

The, the majority of the growth should
come from him, but this ability to get

away from this redemptive redemption
through violence, instead of this

redemptive violence, they was able to
lay down his sword and put himself.

I mean, ultimately, you know, put himself
between the person who pruned them

in the beginning or one of, you know,
well, I mean, we now know, and kind of

talked about why that road was paved,
but in the episode one, he didn't know

that, you know, and he came around to
the point of like, I'm going to put

myself between you and he who remains,
uh, it was such a powerful moment.

Trey: Yeah.

And you know, you're speaking to
the, the volumes that speaks of Loki.

It speaks to Sylvia as well, because
she is restrained in that moment when

it's, low-key like she's coming down
with all her force because it's king.

And as soon as Loki appears,
she stops at right as his neck.

And it was like, it was just
like, whoa, like it, it hit

Jude: me hard.

Well, in low-key here shows empathy.

It was such a wonderful moment.

Uh, and then, and coming into that
moment, there was a very effective Zack

Snyder slow-mo Hey credit, where credit's
due slow-mo can be very effective.

And it was right there
invented by Zack Snyder.

There was no slow-mo before then.

Um, but yeah, before, before
Zach and after Zach, um, and then

of course they have the kids.

Yeah,

Trey: and I I'm, I'm completely
fine with it at this point.

How do you feel about it?

Cause I know we both had issues
in it with it a few episodes ago.

Jude: At this point I just kind of
came to terms with like, if it's a,

if it's, I'm just using my own head.

Uh, have they came from different
universes ish kind of thing.

Um, cause it just, again, going off
of what Rob Logan said when he was on

our show and some other things of just
having to let go of the mechanics of

how that didn't make sense to me, you
know, um, and truly the mechanics of

like, how are you getting all these
different Loki's from the same timeline?

You know what I mean?

Like, like it just, it, like, if
you're, if you're holding one anyways,

not don't want to go down the road.

Uh, but the big, the big thing
I promised myself, I wouldn't

get bogged down on that.

But the big thing I got out
of it was, was the spin.

Like it was almost like it was an apology.

The kiss itself was like an apology,
um, because she spins him around and

that's the point where he sin, where,
where she sends Loki off, you know?

And, and so like, it it's that spin is
almost like out of dramatic effect, but

at the same time, It's it wasn't, it was
strategic to like, get you out of the way

Trey: it's a literal twist.

Yeah.

I appreciate the show so much
for it because I like the way you

described it as like low-key showing
empathy, because what does he say?

I don't care about a throne.

I care that you're okay.

And it's just like this moment where you
think they're finally on the same page,

we know low-key is capable of changing.

We're now seeing Sylvie capable of change.

Literal twist.

No, here's your heartbreak.

Yeah.

And so it's just done.

So

Jude: yeah, I put low-key as heartbroken
and it was sad to see low-key heartbroken.

I felt for him.

Trey: Yeah.

I do want to, I feel like we're
tiptoeing into the next section, but

I do want to circle back to something
leading up to the kiss where there's

this moment where Sylvie just says,
why aren't we seeing this the same way?

And I wanted to highlight this because
we went through so much work to prove

the point that people can change.

And then the biggest moment of
the season hinges on people being

reinforced that maybe they couldn't
after all we know it's not true.

And we know that they can, but
the face of futility, they still

revert back to those impulses.

There is like, I'm frustrated
because I know they're capable of it.

But this goes back in line with what I
was saying about a shot call from the MCU.

I think that this is part of that
experience because as massive

as a scale is, if we're going to
surmount this mountain, it has to

feel impossible to make it that
much more rewarding when we do.

And so, you know, I'm left with
the question, can the MCU do that?

Well, this is, this is what the
next phase is going to be about.

Right.

And I, again, genuinely excited
to see that all play out.

Jude: Yeah.

Well we think through the show as well,
Sylvie didn't get the opportunities

of growth the way located SIF.

Right.

And having to go through that
and, you know, be well Sylvie.

Didn't get to watch her story with,
Moebius go into the timeline, you

know, and on the, on the film reel.

Sylvie didn't get the little
time loop torture thing.

Uh, and so, so there was so much,
and so I found it interesting that

at the end, that expectation, they
were able to set up that Sylvie was

going to have some sort of growth.

Yeah.

That, that really, they
didn't lay the groundwork

Trey: for.

Well, I mean, and it's like,
cause you talk about Sylvie.

Didn't get to watch her story.

Sylvia doesn't have a right.

Like she didn't, she
didn't get that chance.

Yeah.

I like like the,

Jude: her, her, you know, her foundation.

Well, let's put it this way.

Like her foundation of who she is was
always revenge driven, taken down the TVA,

whereas Loki, while he did you know who
he is, I betray people looking for power.

He had even of this low-key
didn't experience it.

He got to see it.

Yeah.

He got an opportunity to see through
lady SIF, the, um, the pain he

caused and how much DOR Odin Frigga
did care about him and then, and

Trey: Mobius.

Yeah.

You know, I, I do want to, to just
state, like, I don't, like, I totally

understand Sylvie, like being driven
to this, this point of revenge.

And I think the thing that I wrote down
is what's what makes this so hard is

that this is all stacked against Sylvie.

Not only in the ways that you
just described there with not

having the story, not having those
reinforced moments of realizing.

Uh, there was more to the path that
she was on, but it's no option that

was given to her, feels like the
right move, whether she kills Kang

and gets that hollow closure, or she
takes over with Loki and continues

to enforce this lack of free will.

There is no road that I
think is the right one.

It's just what, which
road is the harder one.

And I think that the tragedy of it is
we see the hardest road chosen, chosen.

Jude: Yeah.

Well, the other thing I find fascinating
or not fascinating, it's just tragic.

Uh, you brought it up.

So fan theory that you saw on Reddit
as to why, and I don't know if

it's been confirmed yet, why Sylvia
was pruned, but if her nexus of.

Was idolizing the Valkyrie and
not going to be self interested

like that was taken from her.

And she became in that way.

Self-interested all the way to the end.

Trey: Yeah.

It's, it's an inverse
of our two characters.

Yeah.

You know, I think we both multiple
times have come back to this tragedy

word and I think that that's a
great summation of what this is.

Cause man, was this a hard episode?

Yeah.

Well, unless we have anything more to
talk about in this choice section, uh,

I think we can move into the next one.

Jude: Well, I will say this one,
last thing, Trey, go for it.

You can be happy now that there's multiple
timelines, multiple universes, actually,

which means there is a universe out there.

Where Sam Wilson didn't take on a truck.

Trey: I, that was, I watched
us walk all the way down there.

I knew what was coming

Jude: you're right.

You're a, and John Walker
still captain America.

So

Trey: that's not what it don't put that.

I want to say this there's been
multiple occasions where I have

been Funko, pop hunting, and I
have seen countless John Walker.

Funko pops and I can not bring
myself to pull the trigger.

Jude: Oh

Trey: man.

All right.

You done?

Yeah.

Okay.

Let's move into the next section.

So we're going to move into the
next section, which is called,

where do we go from here?

And this is going to entail
this entire last act from the

moment that Sylvie pushes Loki
through the portal killing king.

And we see the effects that low-key
discovers as he goes through the TVA.

So starting with me again, I just, I
have to emphasize, because this was the

first thing that I thought of whenever
I had my initial reactions, seeing the

entirety of this final act play out
and we get that big moment where Loki

looks up and sees the statue of king.

I have not felt that pit in my
stomach since the moment that

Thanos snapped and infinity war.

It, of course, like I'm talking about the
moment where Loki sees the statue, but

it starts from the moment we see Sylvie
kill king all the way through there.

And it was just like, that's powerful.

I, you know, I talked about how
after seeing Avengers end game.

I didn't know if I would ever
get a moment as close to watching

cat lift the hammer as I did.

And then far from home came out and I saw
the mysterial projection thing and was

like, wow, it's crazy that they were able
to get that close to that feeling for me.

I didn't know if we'd ever get a point
where something could be that heavy of

fan of snapping, but they did it again.

And I'm just continually,
continuously impressed by the way.

Yeah.

Listen,

Jude: my expectation was he was going
to come back to the TVA and disarray and

I don't know where Loki is right now.

Neither do I.

I really don't.

I will say that that moment where
you go and you have Kings statue,

they reminded me of the ending
of the planet of the apes now.

And I'm thinking of the
original planet of the apes.

I am actually have not seen
any the most recent ones.

Um, they're really good.

They're really solid.

Um, no, I hear they are.

And I, and I know I shouldn't.

Uh, but I'm thinking about that end,
where you get the statue of Liberty,

you know, uh, I it's okay to spoil
planet of the apes from the seventies.

Right.

Trey: I would say, okay.

So that moment has been spoofed so many

Jude: times, so yeah, like
it reminds me, give me that,

which I really, really enjoyed.

Um, but yeah, like I, but it
also left me with where not

when, but where is he lightly?

So, okay.

Again, let's buy into the world and
he, she hasn't killed Kane yet when

she pushed him through with the portal.

However it wasn't the same temp
pad that she's using from the

TVA it's what king would use.

And that already started to show
the sacred timeline splintering.

So we can't be sure that he actually
got shoved into the same universe.

Trey: So I just to interrupt, I had a
question that I, I was going to ask later,

but I think it fits in perfectly here.

So I'm gonna go ahead and ask it.

We see a moment after Sylvie kills king
where Mobius and B 15 are looking at

the monitor as the timeline splits.

And they're like, okay, I guess
there's no going back from her.

And then we cut to Loki.

He has his scene and it, it ends with
him getting to Moebius and be 15.

And we learn, they don't know who he is.

And this is now the universe where
king is a lot more front and center.

Are we to read that as two different
sets of Moebius and be 15 or like,

cause I'm right there with you.

My question is like, where is Loki?

And I think if we can get maybe an answer
of that, that might help clarify things.

If this,

Jude: if of Christopher Nolan made
this, it's definitely two different sets

going in the same direction
from the opposite side.

No, like I, I don't know my first
watch until they didn't recognize him.

This was the same one.

But now I'm not sure.

Trey: Well, because I
think that's by design.

They want you to feel that way.

But now I don't know.

It's, it'll be interesting to see if
we have two sets of, of them at play,

especially going into the next season.

I do want to, I like this as well.

And this was something that was
brought up in the discord by aeroplane

that I really, really enjoyed.

He had this really long write-up.

That was awesome.

So if you're in the discord,
you should check it out.

But the summation of it was him
detailing how there are echoes of this

and Avengers in game and specifically,
uh, what I liked about it was, you

know, we see where Sylvie gets her
revenge and immediately after killing

him, you know, Kang said, see you soon.

And it's just kind of like this very
harrowing sendoff, you know, it's supposed

to be this, this, this closure moment, but
Sylvie, like the music's quiet, it's just

kind of an empty room and she backs up
and she kind of just falls to the ground.

It feels like an echo of what Thor
went through when he beheaded Thanos.

And it's like, yes, you did the thing.

You beat the bad guy, but you can't,
you can't reverse the consequences.

And so that's just an interesting parallel
between this and a vendor's end game.

Because again, this feels so much
like setting up the next big, bad,

and I like that there are echoes, but
between the time, and I have to ask

Jude: this question in the discord,
but I'm going to ask you this as well.

Are we also, or is this, is this
thought also saying that in that

moment Sylvie realized what she did
and, and maybe he says she shouldn't.

Yeah.

Trey: I don't know if it's, she shouldn't
have, I don't know if she comes to that

realization that she shouldn't have done
it, but I do think there's definitely

a feeling of why am I not happy?

Because if this is the thing
you've been working to, to

fall to the ground like that.

And just that, that it's I guess,
because it's that, that empty space

and the lack of music that just makes
me really feel like Sylvie is unsure.

Yeah.

But what about you?

How did you read?

I don't know.

Jude: I really, I think, I think honestly,
my focus was, was more on Loki and the

TVA and so, yeah, I'm not sure how I
thought of what I thought of Sylvia,

Trey: I guess, because I was already
on that feeling of revenge being

corrosive from last episode, I
just felt a little bit more keyed

into that final scene with silver.

Like that, that's what that feeling of
like, why am I not happy after doing?

And again, we talked about it earlier,
is that echo of Loki from last episode,

and then I'll finally be happy.

Well, you

Jude: know what, and it might be, it might
be that it might be just what you were

saying, how the revenge is corrosive.

Um, and maybe the realization is not
that I shouldn't have done it from

the multi-vessel bore standpoint,
but maybe it's this realization of.

Because I wasn't able to trust what
did, what did I have to give up

to achieve this in terms of Loki?

Trey: Yeah, I think that's a really good
call, especially given how much trust

is a reoccurring theme among the series.

You know, you talked about how you
were more focused on Loki in this,

um, you know, one small thing I have
to add is that again, the pit of my

stomach feeling Loki says everything
without saying anything and the scene

where he's just kind of staring off.

And it reminded me a lot of the end of
infinity war where Steve kind of falls

to the ground and just goes, oh God,
like that realization of like we lost.

Jude: Yeah.

Like that, that I think I,
that I definitely picked up on.

Trey: Yeah.

So what were your feelings on that?

On the low-key side of this final act?

Jude: You know, I, Hey, I
thought it was interesting.

Just again how heartbroken he
was and, you know, like, like,

cause he finally, you know, learns
his lesson so to speak, right.

Changes becomes better,
does the right thing.

And in doing that, you know, he loses
something that he wants and in, and

that's gotta be really hard for him.

It was my thought.

I'm finally got to a place
where I'm doing the right thing.

I know why I did the things I did.

I know I'm not doing that
anymore, but yet I lose.

Right.

Like I I'm I'm right.

And that's just, yeah, it was just tragic.

This was a really tragic episode.

You can come back to that word.

Trey: If we had a word cloud
of this episode, tragic is

definitely the biggest one.

Jude: As you say second biggest
clone wars, but okay, come on.

No, but yeah, you're right.

If were cloud definitely.

I think.

You know, um, would be right there.

Trey: No, we're getting a season
two at this point, and I like the

way you framed it, that like Loki
lesson learned, did the thing he

was supposed to do and still failed.

I think that's just such a natural
progression of where we go from here

where this character is learning that
despite it not working out, like he would

have hoped he still did the right thing.

So he gets to, to hopefully learn
to just continue doing that.

Even if it doesn't play out.

Like you'd like, if that makes sense,
but yeah, I think that's going to

do it for this section, uh, which
leaves us with our stray thoughts.

So, Jude, do you have any
stray thoughts of this episode?

Jude: Thoughts?

See, I love the, I'm just gonna say the
captain Peggy song playing with all the

sound bites, the vision quote was great,
uh, coming out of Wanda vision, um,

that whole sequence of visually getting
from there to the title, to where the

Manor was, the castle, the Citadel, I
think is where they were calling it.

Um, that reminded me of 2001
space Odyssey, uh, which I

really, really enjoy that movie.

That was really cool.

Um, I think they visually there'd
be on time and they visually

represented it really well.

Uh, so I really liked that.

Um, when Kane was, oh, uh, let me do this.

It's kind of out of order.

It's not sequential when king was quick.

I love the explanation of why
he was able to move so fast.

Um, there's a fan theory floating
out there, uh, that I, that I love.

So I hope this is true.

Um, that king was eating an apple
and they have this whole, an apple

a day, keeps the doctor away.

Meaning Dr.

Strange, um, you know, when they first
got in, there was a shattered statue.

I'm curious about what the
status, the shattered statue was.

There's only one.

Um, you know, as you said, sometimes
the curtains are blue, sometimes

they're not, that was very intentional.

Uh, so I'm curious to what that, what that
means, uh, TVA, is that a necessarily lie?

I don't know.

It's interesting way to look at it.

Uh, now I'm going to go ahead
and jump into the weeds and get

bogged down on the mechanics.

If he knows all and sees all,
how does this knowledge run out?

Shouldn't he have known that his
knowledge was going to run out.

Like it, it felt like surprise
and it also just felt.

Well, I already mentioned it needed
to happen because Loki and Sylvie

needed to be able to make the choice.

Right.

It did feel very dais
ex Mokena for the story.

It was just like, like, oh, we're just
going to have it run out, you know?

And, and so again, getting bogged down
in the mechanics of it, um, you know, so

like, and I, and I get that, uh, but that
did take a little bit out of it for me.

Um, you know, he's like, he realizes,
we just crossed the threshold is

like, again, wouldn't he have already
have known that or expected it,

and it didn't come across that way.

To me, it came across as like,
you know, um, I don't know, uh,

they, they kind of dealt with the
multi-verse and, and again, time loops.

I wish they would just get away
from stupid time loops, um, where

they, where they kind of hinted
at, like there's a multiverse that

are all on there, all timelines.

No, it's just, they got to
get away from the time loops.

Um, cause they kind of hinted at that,
you know, at each it's each universe has

its own time loop, uh, not a fan of that.

Um, so yeah, so those, uh, oh, I
also liked how the visually the,

when it started splintering away,
it kind of looked like a brain and

all those synapses and stuff firing.

Yeah.

Um, and one last thing I'm going
to shout out to TJ real quick

when Kane was explaining how the
multi-verse is worked, right.

Talking about the being stacked on
top of each other and all of that.

The physics actually wasn't that
far off as far as I understand.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Like as, as I understand, you
know, again, my very, very basic

knowledge have to have TJ back,
um, of how, you know, string theory

works and all and all of that stuff.

Um, you know, the quantum mechanics,
um, it's clearly it's a show, but the

way he was explaining it, being stacked
on top of each other and those types

of things, the, the physics in this, I
don't think was actually that far off.

So TJ probably probably appreciated that
more than he did the rocket in the truck.

Those are my straight thoughts.

Trey: It feels like an
invitation to get TJ backlog.

Jude: Yeah.

Well, I know we've talked about it so

Trey: well for me, one, this
one just got added to it.

I can't believe we almost made it
this episode without talking about

that opening sequence, where we
got all the lines from different

movies in the MCU and the TV shows.

So that was really good, great
way to set up things are changing.

Um, the other one I had was miss Minot,
scared the heck out of me whenever

they entered in the Citadel and they're
walking and she's just like, Hey y'all.

And he was just like, oh my God.

Like, it scared me for real.

But, uh, and then I, I really didn't
have too many straight thoughts.

The last one I have is Kangas growth.

Like he wiped his nose
and then touch the apple.

He was eating and it was just
like, that kind of threw me off of

Jude: it.

I notice that, um, yeah, like
next time I watch, that's

probably the only thing I'll see.

Uh

Trey: huh.

I get, I get like just brushing
against your nose, but he, he, I

dunno, he spent a long time and then
he just immediately touched his apple.

So I could not talk about that.

Well, yeah, that, uh, that's going
to do it for the stray thoughts.

You know, normally we do predictions, but
given that this is the finale, there's

not really a lot for us to predict.

So I think we alluded to it too.

We're going to have a
wrap-up episode next week.

Uh, so we'll have more to discuss
about the future of low-key, but

I think that's going to do it.

So if you have any thoughts or opinions
on this episode, Or if you'd like

to comment on anything we mentioned,
you can reach us at MC you need to

know at Twitter and Instagram, or
if you'd like to join our discord,

there's a link to it in the show notes.

So wonderful community of people who are
just as excited about the MCU as we are.

And we'd love to

Jude: have you.

And when you get to this score and
make sure you go to the role of sign,

click on the emoji, so you can have
access to all the spoiler channels to

these wonderful conversations, uh, and
go ahead and make sure you follow us

on whatever pod catcher you're using.

Please leave us a review
and some feedback.

Uh, he knows, uh, next one, we'll
get to read on line, um, live on

the pod again, just like we did
here, a live recorded anyways.

And the best thing he you do for
us is share with the friends.

Trey: We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy
for the use of our theme song, which

is his rendition of the Avengers theme.

You find more of his work
in his SoundCloud, which is

linked in the show notes.

All right, that's going to do it.

Thank you so much for listening
and thank you for doing this too.

Thank you.

We'll see you all next week.

You know, it's so funny to me.

I love that we're here at the sin
and we can reveal now that throughout

the entirety of this episode, we had
of a friend listening in on this.

Jude: Yes.

Uh, so a coworker kin, uh, You
know, and he was curious about

the process and wanting to sit in.

So this episode, Ken, thank you for
joining us and, and I hope you got

out of it, what you're looking for.

Well,

Trey: thank you so much for giving
me this opportunity to just listen.

I'm always curious about, you
know, processes behind things,

movies, um, podcasts, even,
and just listening to you guys.

All I can say is while I was listening
to you, there were parts where I would

get distracted and I was like, oh, I
have to rewind this, but I couldn't.

Jude: But

Trey: it's just so cool.

Listening to the dynamic, the sharing.

It's amazing.

Thank you.

Thank

Jude: you so much.

Cool.

Trey: Thank you so much.

Thank you.

You know, I find it so funny because.

I think before we even decided
that we were going to do this a few

weeks ago, I opened up one of the
banters of the banter section of the

podcast, by saying, I wonder who the
first person is that listens to it.

And now we know definitively
with this episode.

It was you.

Yeah.

It's an honor to listen to the
first episode, the first one to

hear the podcast, again, many,
many thanks to both of you.

And again, congrats for one year and to
the many more years of MCU need to know.

Thanks.

Thank you so much, Kim.

So, like we said, you're
going to hear an audio cue.

And once we get on the other side
of it, it's going to be fair game

for the MCU up until this finale.

So if not, let me start that over.

So on the other side of this queue, it's
going to be fair game for all spoilers

in the MCU, including this finale.

So, uh, you'll hear the queue
and we'll be on the other side.

So we'll see you on the other side.

That was weird.

That was awkward.

That was weird.

Why am I having a hard time with this?

I don't know.

I put too much pressure on it.

On

Jude: that beginning.

You were like, so we'll
see you on the other side.

So we'll see you in,

Trey: listen.

It's all my variants coming through
saying it at one moment in time.

Jude: Okay.

Let's start over.

Okay.

Trey: See, that's my character growth.

I can pretend with nothing as well.

Now he's doing stop.

Okay.

Let's start from here.