Trey: hello.

And welcome back to another episode of
MC you need to know a podcast dedicated

to the Marvel cinematic universe
and everything you need to know.

I'm

Jude: Trey I'm Jude.

How are you doing

Trey: Trey?

Well, dude, I'm excited because today we
finally get to stop running from our past.

After many released delays, we are
joined by podcasting's pop culture

aficionado, and the MCU host who assures
us each week that there was an idea.

I'm delighted to welcome
back Tara to the podcast.

Welcome back, TK.

Welcome Tara.

Tara: Hello.

I'm so excited.

I'm so excited to be
here and talk about that.

Trey: It's been so long and I'm
so glad that we're finally getting

to realize this episode together.

Tara: Yeah, this has been.

Close to a year in the making.

Jude: I tell you what,
let's just start here.

It was so fun to like, cause we
have our group text and the texting

was like, I've seen it in and
then get the reaction from Tara.

Um, and then also, no, that tray
was basically the movie you saw was

starting right as that was coming out.

Uh, there was just, I don't know,
having that feeling again because

you haven't, you know, I'm used to
that with friends, with MCU movies.

And it's it's, it's so good

to

Trey: do it again.

Yeah.

And I think just like an added layer of
it, and obviously we didn't plan this,

but Jude, you took the morning shift.

I took the mid day shift and Tara,
you ended up taking the night shift.

So basically among the three of us, one
of us was at the theaters throughout the

entire day, which is just so fantastic.

Tara: My family's in town.

I ended up seeing the movie with
them, which is why I saw it a

little later than I had planned to.

And when I got the text from YouTube
that you had seen it and Trey was in

the theater, I shared it with them.

I was like, I was like, oh man.

I was like, my podcasting
friends are in there now.

Like, you know, I'm just getting really

Trey: pumped about it.

Just dawning on me.

I forgot to circle back to it
because I got the text obviously

in real time, but I didn't get to
check it until the movie was over.

And I was sitting there waiting
for the Intacct to happen.

And I was almost about to text was like,
oh wait, Tara, hasn't seen this yet.

So I had to like backspace my text before.

Tara: I appreciate

Trey: that.

Well, obviously we're going to be
talking about black widow today,

but before we begin Tara, I wanted
to take some time to spotlight.

There was an idea.

Um, you know, currently you're in
your season five of the podcast,

which has been encompassing your
exploration of Loki, uh, how have you

been enjoying the low-key series and
in turn this season of your pocket,

Tara: Yeah, thanks Trey.

I have been loving low-key so much.

I have always been a huge fan
of Loki's character and was very

excited for this Disney plus show.

Probably more than any
other Disney pleasure.

I think when you and I spoke back in
December about the Disney investor

day announcements, I want to say
that I claimed at the time on your

show that I asserted that Loki was
the show I was most excited for.

I don't, I may be wrong because I
think if you, depending on which

day you ask me, I may have had
an, a different answer to that.

But regardless, Loki was something I was
really looking forward to for a long time.

And it's been, you know, I, we, I know
we've talked about this before, but the

run of all the Disney plus shows and
putting out podcast episodes week to week

throughout one division and then Falcon,
and now Loki is a lot to, you know,

watch these episodes and process them.

Fairly quickly before turning around
a conversation with somebody else

about them and, you know, reflecting
on the, the characters and the

themes and all of that week to week.

So it's been interesting and,
uh, it I'm calling it my season

five, because five is low-key.

Four was Falcon three was one division.

And then prior to that, I did
kind of two different to me.

They were conceptually distinct
runs of movie deep dives.

So I'm looking forward to being
back in the realm of a film and

looking at how Marvel does a movie
as opposed to the TV show format.

And it's been, it's been really
interesting to just engage with this

content that I love so much in so many
different ways in the realm of talking

about it with other people and putting my,
my own thoughts out there into the world.

So it's been a lot.

Trey: Yeah, it's definitely a
very enjoyable part of my week.

And just almost in and out of each week,
you're find new people we'll talk about,

which just creates wonderful conversation.

So yeah, very, very happy to
hear that it's going well.

Jude: You know what I find interesting,
uh, friends, you know, like I said,

we, we talk about Marvel stuff in the
MCU, but in the past year, since doing

the podcast and in particular with
the episodes, you know, and it's all

been on a friend, Daniel, TJ, uh, Mr.

Frank kin.

Oh, I know.

There's, there's people I'm forgetting
my friend, Sean, but I I'm finding that,

that as soon as someone sees it, they're
texting me or asking me my thoughts,

or are you going to talk about this?

Or you can talk about that.

Uh, do you get that same.

Tara: Yes, I do.

Um, I have, you know, when I first started
the podcast project, which is pretty much

a year to the date almost, um, this week.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

So I've been doing a lot
of reflecting on that.

Jude: Thank you.

Happy

Tara: anniversary.

Yeah, you it's, it's a lot to, to kind of
think about, but I, you know, especially

when I first started out and was looking
at one movie at a time, I was sometimes

asking people who I knew to guest on
a particular episode, and maybe they

hadn't seen that movie prior, or maybe
they hadn't even seen any MCU prior.

And so, so some of those
people have since become fans.

Uh, some of them haven't as much.

Um, but anybody who I was somewhat
responsible for kind of getting into

the MCU in the first place, uh, has
definitely been, they come to me with

their reactions to each new thing they
watch and asking me for, for my, for my.

My take on it and I
certainly don't mind it.

You know, it's something that I, uh, I
feel excited that I was able to share my

love for this world, with other people.

And then it's kind of spread, but
probably the funniest one to me is my mom.

Um, historically hadn't been into.

The MCU in any real way.

I mean, like had some familiarity with
it had seen some of the movies was

very familiar with the comic characters
growing up, but then once I got into

this project and she saw how much I
was spending time on it and she, she

kind of like got back into the world
herself and it's always so amusing to

get texts from her about like the latest
episode of fluky or whatever it may be.

So it's, um, it's definitely
become part of that thing.

It's one of my identity
markers at, at work.

And I know we've talked about that,
but like, it's one of the things,

people know, you do a Marvel podcast,
they're going to come at you with

their, their marble questions.

Uh, but Hey, there are worse things to be

Trey: known for.

It's very fitting to me that hearing
these stories about how you introduced

people to the MCU or re-introduced
them and kind of brought them together.

It's so fitting that your podcast
is called, there was an idea because

you were becoming like the Nick
fury of the friends and family.

And

Tara: I love it.

I love that.

I've never thought of it that way,
but now I'm not going to get that up.

I really

Jude: like that.

Trey: Fantastic.

Of course, if you're listening,
you should definitely check it out.

It's called, there was an idea, a
Marvel cinematic universe podcast

available on most podcasts and, uh,
we'll link to it in the show notes.

But of course, if you download
this episode, you know, we're

going to be discussing black widow.

This isn't the deep dive.

This is more just kind
of our initial reactions.

We all have just seen it yesterday.

Uh, so we're going to take some
time to give some general reactions

and some preschooler thoughts.

So Tara, if we can start with
you, uh, what did you think?

Tara: I loved this movie.

Seeing, I I've loved
the Disney plus shows.

I really have, we've
talked about all of them.

Wanda vision is something
that is so special to me.

I genuinely enjoyed a
lot of what Falcon did.

I'm loving low-key, but there was
something about this being a movie

that was just so thrilling and
just reminded me of what Marvel

does within the movie format.

And I, I absolutely loved this movie.

I was engaged every single second of this
film and I, as it was unfolding, as I

was watching it, I was just processing
how, just how good it felt and how, how

special this movie really felt to me.

So I just felt like the combination
of the emotional aspect, the.

The character moments, the fight
scenes and the set pieces and

just how it all came together.

I thought that it was effective in all
of those categories and immediately stood

out to me as being, having the qualities
that are among my favorite movies in the

Jude: MCU.

Wow.

Yeah.

So I I'm with you on that,
or I've enjoyed, uh, you

know, the Disney plus shows.

I've enjoyed getting to get the
conversations and new Marvel content,

but it's just, it's not the same for me.

I just, I love going to the theater.

I love seeing it on the big screen and
this character in particular having, you

know, should have had a movie way before
now and finally getting to see that and.

They pulled it off like it as a
prequel, they pulled it off as,

you know, giving her or fulfilling,
you know, filling out her story

maybe is the way I should put it.

It's just, it was so good.

Trey: You know, I think we're all three
having a very similar feeling because

that was one of the first things I
wrote is that, you know, I know I

I've had my qualms with the Disney
plus shows, but I I've, I've enjoyed

them, but there's, there's something
about watching the MCU return to form

like this is where they started with
the movies and it definitely felt.

Like a different experience.

So often I think we keep saying like,
oh, this felt like it could have been

on the big screen with these Disney
plus shows everything in Blackwood.

It was like, oh, this is the big screen.

This is what, this is what
they're trying to accomplish.

Feeling-wise but this is
exactly what I've been missing.

And there is a level of bittersweetness
to this film because of course black

widow could handle their own solo movie.

Like it was perfect and it took way
too long, but I'm so thankful that we

got this movie because it really felt
almost like a greatest hits collection

of Natasha as well as like celebrating
everything she's done in the MCU,

but with a much deserved focus of the
front and center, a hero of the story.

So in short, I liked it a lot.

Tara: Nobody can see it, but I
was vigorously nodding my head.

Trey: I love it.

Thank you.

Well,

Jude: yeah.

No, they'll say let's play

Trey: the sound.

Let's go for it.

So, yeah, we, uh, even though
we're not doing the most important

topics, we are going to go ahead
and give you a spoiler warning.

So on the other side of the spoiler queue,
it's going to be fair game of everything

in the Marvel cinematic universe.

So we'll see you on the other side

and we're back.

So now that we're here in the spoiler
section, I think one of the easiest

places that we can start with is
just simply Tara, how did this movie

expand your understanding of Natasha?

Tara: Yeah, so I have always been
a fan of Natasha and have always

considered her to be among my
favorite characters in the MCU.

But after seeing this installment,
she is like solidly top tier character

who I think has had a complete.

Satisfying inspiring, just
awesome arc in the MCU.

And I was thinking about the many
ways in which I've talked on your

podcast and on mine about how I
feel very inspired by Steve Rogers.

And I think that there's a lot that
Natasha and Steve Rogers have in

common, and I've always kinda thought
that, um, but in this episode,

in this episode, oh my goodness.

Um, in this installment, in
the MCU, in this chapter of her

story, I think that we got to see.

So much more of how she has survived
and overcome extreme pain and trauma.

And she to echo what she says in her
conversation with Steve and end game,

she's still trying to be better.

And I loved seeing that chapter.

It felt like this chapter was missing.

And like you guys already mentioned,
I wish we had gotten it years ago, but

then I also found myself thinking maybe
if this movie had come years ago, maybe

it wouldn't have been quite the same.

And so I will take it for what it is.

And I just love being able to circle
back and see this part of her story that

feels consistent with what we then saw
in infinity Warren end game and makes her

story that much more powerful and sad.

Like I felt so sad.

This person who is not unreal,
but she felt very real to me

in watching this movie, knowing
where her story was going to go.

And I, I know there's, there's
some discourse out there and maybe

we'll, we'll talk about this.

A lot of people are really excited
about the Yulaina character and

Florence Pew's, um, performance.

And I am too.

I think she's incredible for the record.

I love her, but I, I don't want
that to take away from what I

think was a really, really good
Swan song for Scarlett Johannson.

I thought her performance
in this was beautiful.

And I, there, I think there was
a lot to Natasha that felt like

it felt like it was in the series
before, but we just didn't get to

see it and it didn't feel as earned.

And so this is what, that's what this
movie really kind of filled in for me.

Jude: Well, I would say for me,
it helps in that that transition.

To this leadership role.

I mean, cause cause if you think about, we
first see you're in, you know, iron man to

side character, uh, trade, I talked about
the, you know, issues with how she was

portrayed, you know, just the characters
and the female character and, and stopped.

But then you get an Avengers, you
know, and she she's prominent there,

but it's not until, you know, and
in an age of Ultron, uh, it gets a

little bit better, but you know, you
really see or start becoming less

of a, uh, more of a mainstay there.

Put it that way, maybe in a civil
war and then clearly like an end

game after the snap, like she is
the one holding things together.

Um, and so it was great to
see what she went through.

You know, the, and, and what she,
the, the lessons she had to take

away and learn from that experience
in order to go do what was

necessary for infinity war and gang.

Trey: Yeah.

Yeah.

I think to borrow what you were saying,
Tara, that it, it felt like a missing

piece that I think that is 100% where
I'm at, because I think if you look, um,

similar to what you were highlighting,
Jude of her arc in the MCU, Prior to this.

I mean, her growth feels like going
from feeling like she had nothing, but

the next mission to finally recognizing
that like, oh, she found a family and

what we saw, what she was willing to
give up everything, an end game to

bring that family back and this, like,
I don't want to take away from that

because I do think that is an incredible
arc and end game that she was on.

But I remember specifically in our, our
very misguided what to expect episode a

year ago, I thought it was coming up soon.

I said that the thing that I was expecting
in black widow is to feel in that piece

of how she got to this point where
she could make that sacrifice play.

Um, and it's not that I, I think.

She wasn't capable of doing that.

Like it all made sense, but it almost
feels like with this entry in the

black widow, it's like taking the
timeline and just like zooming in

a little bit and being like, oh,
here's this, that was always there.

And, and, and to, to drill into
it a little bit more, like, I like

the way this movie sets up, you
know, it's takes place after civil

war, the vendors are broken up.

The thing that she thought
she had with them is gone.

And now she's being faced with, I say,
quote, unquote, real family, because

we, we recognized that it was a stage
thing, but it was the closest thing to

a real family that she and Yulaina had.

And so I liked that they show that in
order to get to the point in infinity war

in, in game, where she has to fix that
family, she first learns how to do it

with this real one in this, this movie.

And I thought that was such a great, yeah.

What's the word I'm looking for.

Just a great way to reinforce how she
gets to where she gets in, because the,

I guess, at least for me, the thing
that I took so much out of her deciding

it should be her to sacrifice herself.

Despite the dark path that Clint went
on is he was willing to forgive her and

not let the past dictate who she is.

So she wanted to do the same to him.

And I think that is similar to
what happens in black widow, where

she realizes that the past of
her family could be fixed well.

So a little convoluted, but
that's, that's what I was coming

feeling coming out of this movie.

Tara: Yeah.

I

Jude: think that's a great parallel.

It is.

I really liked.

We talk a lot about the, the balance
between what needs to be shown on

screen and what can be done off screen.

And this, this pre-qual format of
being able to like zoom into this part

of the timeline with this character,
I think really worked well for me.

It's like, there's a, it's like the
expectation without this movie is that

character growth happened off screen.

Right.

And, and getting that glimpse now
and showing us was really satisfying.

Tara: I think I sat on, on an episode
that I did with you guys, it was one of

your questions of the week at some point.

And I think about like, what movie
along the timeline would you like

to see or something to that effect?

I forget exactly what your question
was, but I remember my response

to it is like, I want to see like
leading up to infinity war, like

what's going on with like Natasha and
Steve and Sam and all those people.

And so I just, I was really, really
excited to be like, Ooh, this

is the part of the timeline that
we're zooming in on and seeing this

particular character during that time.

And I was just so excited by that premise
and it completely delivered for me.

Trey: I think another thing that I really
enjoyed about them exploring Natasha's

character a little bit more is she
frequently made references throughout

the MCU to the red in her ledger.

And given, given the way that
her character is introduced.

I'm assuming there's more to it
than that than just this moment we

learned about in black widow where
she sacrificed Dre cop's daughter to,

to get out from the clutches of him.

But I think this movie really shows
that this is the one that's been

weighing on her all these years.

And it's, it feels weird.

Like I add, it feels weird to say I
enjoy it because obviously it's a very

dark and heavy thing, but it also feels
like another one of those missing pieces

for Natasha, I think to be face to
face with this thing, that's haunted

her for so long, long, and it was.

Interesting that this movie
was able to both set it up and

resolve it within one entry.

And I enjoyed that a lot.

Tara: Yeah.

And, and the red in the ledger to
your point, tray and Dre, Cobb's

daughter was explicitly named by
low-key in the scene that they share

in the Avengers back in 2012 and
take just like, again, the internal

consistency within the MCU is something
that I always find so satisfying.

Nine years ago, you know, sitting in a
movie theater, you have Loki talking to

Natasha and saying Dre Cobb's daughter.

And now here I am nine years later
and I'm watching the story of what

happened with Dre Cobb's daughter.

And it's, it's just really, really

Jude: fun.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There was a lot of good
little Easter egg references.

The whole, thank you for your cooperation,
uh, back to an Avengers, uh, reference,

uh, the whole bit about posing being
composer, but, but just kind of

that reference throughout the movies
of, especially back to Ironman too.

Um, I can't say it was a little bit of
that in winter soldier as well, but yeah,

it just, I loved being able to, or not me.

I love that they were able
to pull that through all, you

know, oh, throughout the years

Trey: you say you do.

I, you know, I'm always trying to get
us somehow on the Marvel team, the

three of us have to start pitching.

Can we come be part of the continuity
team that gets to clearly watch

these babies and be like, Hey, you
can insert this little bit here.

Yeah.

That'd

Jude: be my day job for that job.

Trey: So if anybody at Marvel,
Marvel's listening, we're available.

Oh man.

Well, outside of Natasha, what
other characters stood out to you?

Um, Jude, we can start with you this time.

Jude: I'm actually going
to go with red guardian.

Uh, I mean, we've, we've mentioned,
you know, Florence, Pugh, but I just,

I just love, I loved his character.

I loved seeing his attempted interactions
with his daughters the best way he could.

And, and I guess because I have kids
and, and daughters, but, but just

say it was his own way of trying to.

Be something that they needed and
something that they wanted from him

and in the end, the connection of like,
yeah, it was real for him too, you know?

Um, so yeah, th his character,
I really, really, yeah,

Tara: he was fantastic.

Trey: Yeah.

You know, I know going in, I was so,
and I'll be completely transparent.

It was my expectations of him
was super official because like,

oh, I'm a captain America fan.

This is supposed to be a
captain America like character.

I was really excited for him
and he does have a great arc.

I don't want to take away from that,
but I was not expecting him to be.

As self-centered as he was in
this movie to cut comedic effect.

But I liked him more because I
liked David Harbour more than

I liked the character himself.

So I'm excited for hopefully more of him.

So we can still watch that continued
growth from being this like very

self-absorbed person to being somebody
who could care for his family.

Tara: And I love how as
self-absorbed, as he was and.

Kind of clueless as he
was in a lot of ways.

Like there, there was like a very kind of
like sweet ignorance to him in a way that

like, I, I think, um, Natasha says to him
at some point that he's an idiot, but he

has his own kind of internal consistency.

Right.

So when he is talking about how proud
he is of them, and he's like, you

were the best child, like, you know,
like for him, like, like he really

thinks, you know, he's really proud.

Um, so I really enjoyed
David Harper's perform.

There is

Trey: no good.

And specifically, I think one of the
things he mentioned is like, there

must be so much red in your ledger,

Jude: red

Tara: ripping red.

Yeah.

Trey: So, yeah.

Um, Tara, was there any other characters
that stood out to you in this show?

Tara: I did already reference
the character of Yulaina

and I thought that she was.

Completely dynamic and I was predisposed.

Well, frankly, I was predisposed
already to like David Harbor

as a fan of stranger things.

And I, I very proudly have an eight
by 10 photo of David Harbor in a

frame that was signed and addressed
to me, even though we haven't met.

Okay.

We are from, from the, yeah.

Yes.

He's from the same county
in New York that I am from.

And, uh, so there are some connections
there that are loose connections,

um, of degrees of separation
between me and David Harper.

So he doesn't know that, but
I know that's super cool and

Trey: degrees of separation from
David used to be an album title, but,

Tara: um, but he, uh, yeah, so I
was already a fan of his and I was

already a fan of Florence Pugh as well.

So I.

Was very excited about both of those
actors in both of those characters.

And she absolutely didn't disappoint.

Um, from the moment I saw that
vest, I was feeling very emotional.

And what I really enjoyed about
her performance too, was that she

provided some comedic relief, but
in a way that it didn't really,

it didn't seem out of place.

And her emotional connection to Natasha
was so deep and the way that, you know,

this character and this actor captured
both the why do you do that pose thing?

That was so funny, but she
also was able to capture that

like absolutely heartbreaking.

Um, the best part of my life
was fake or whatever that

line is that she said it was.

Right.

So that character absolutely.

Popped and I I'm sure they have plans
for her in the future of the MCU,

clearly the end tag teased at that.

Um, so yeah, I don't, I don't really
know what else to say that hasn't

been said because I she's incredible.

And I'm just really
excited to see more of her.

Trey: Yeah.

From, from my understanding, I
think Florence Pugh was already

attached to this movie right.

As she has exploded, I think in
the movie scene, like she has

been in so many great works.

I think people are starting to pick up
on what an incredible actor she is and

if she is going to be in the MCU for a
long time, I think we're very, very lucky

because she has brought a lot to Elena
and was an amazing addition to this movie.

But for me, I think the character
that I want to go with as the

one that stood out to me is.

Taskmaster.

And I I'm torn because I would have
liked to have seen more because

we really don't get too much.

But the idea of this character who
is able to mimic fighting styles,

um, has gone through what they've
gone through, but are now free.

It just feels like it's, it's,
it's ripe for storytelling.

And if they keep taskmaster as this
lingering, I'll say anti-hero because

I don't think we have a, a heading
on which way the character will go.

But if they become a lingering presence in
the MCU, that's really, really exciting.

Yeah, I think

Jude: so.

And especially the switch, you
know, task master was not, why

am I blanking on the guy's name?

His daughter should know

Trey: this too.

Jude: Oh, drink a drink of
his daughter, drink off.

His daughter was not taskmaster in
the, in the comic, which is fine.

Yeah, that was completely fine change.

I don't, I loved it.

It put black widow in a, in a
really difficult spot, you know,

and she had to wrestle with that.

And that was fantastic.

Uh, but I, I liked the chain.

I liked that it added something in
a level to that I think character

that they can go with, uh, further.

Tara: Can I shout out one more, please?

This is going to be terrible because
I don't remember his name or if

he even had one, but Natasha's
friend who brings her the supplies.

Oh yeah.

Oh, what was that?

Did that character have a

Trey: name?

So I just Googled it and it says agent,

Jude: agent that's

Tara: no.

Mason.

Trey: Okay.

So my information is going to
be wrong because it also says

Rachel Wise plays iron maiden.

So please ignore me.

Yeah,

Jude: no, no, no, no, no.

I'm on, I am on, uh, I am DB right now.

It says Mason.

Okay.

So yeah.

And in Mason, I'm glad you brought him up.

He was a good, he was a fun character.

You know, I like the tension that
they had between the two of them.

It was, it was really well

Tara: done with very few scenes.

He had an opportunity to leave an
impression and I appreciated that.

Um, you know, he obviously was a
character who would like have this

purpose to explain how Natasha
was going to get access to the

things that she needed access to.

Um, but I thought that, you
know, he was more than that.

Maybe some of it's the credit to the actor
or the writing or whatever it may be, but

I thought he popped a bit more than that.

And it was clear that he, um, that
he did kind of like, I don't know, I

had a crush on her or, you know, like
had some kind of feelings toward her.

Um, that I appreciate that they didn't
try to put it a romance in this film.

I don't think this film could have handled
a romance, um, added onto all of the

other thematic things that it was doing.

But I liked that realistically, of
course, that guy would like have

hearts in his eyes over black window,
because like, but, um, but he, um,

yeah, I thought, I thought he was,

Jude: oh yeah, he was great.

And again, just the little subtle
things, uh, the line at the end

thing Al guys want to hear, you know,
it's just, just things like that.

Um, it was, you know, he did, he did a
lot with a little bit of time and we,

you always get that from the characters.

Like it's, it's sad showing us.

Well, how does black widow, how
does a character like that to

the things she's able to do?

Right.

Get the, get the supply she needs get
off the grid, you know, and, and a

lot of times it's one of those things
that, that gets left off screen.

So it was good to see that.

Trey: Okay.

Just it's.

Uh, I want to think about like any time
we see a movie now, and there's a moment

where, oh, our characters just got like
a huge upgrade or they got transport and

they kind of don't explain how it is.

It's Mason, like he's just been running
this whole time throughout the MCU.

He's the one who helped them get the
wings for Falcon and winter soldier.

Like he's the unsung hero of the MC.

Tara: I love that head Canon.

I completely like subscribe to that.

That's fantastic.

Look at

Jude: truly creating, creating
the things you don't like.

Good for you.

Oh no.

Trey: Listen to me.

I'm trying to change.

I'm trying to be better.

Get out of my way.

Jude: It's so fantastic

that they want to bring the one-shot back.

That's what they do.

They bring Mason in, bring him
in and do a one-shot of how

he's getting, getting the stuff.

Trey: There you go.

Cause they already had cold,
uh, busy day or busy week.

It'll be masons.

Yeah.

Right.

Well, moving along, I think the
next thing we kind of want to zone

in on here is, uh, the things that
surprised us most about black widow

and starting with me this time.

Uh, I gotta say I'm coming
back to taskmaster again.

I was genuinely shocked that it wasn't
Molina as taskmaster and maybe this

is me bringing my own expectations
to the movies, but every trailer,

the way it was shot, it just.

Making me feel like there was going to be
this big twist, like, oh, this person that

Natasha was close to, you ends up being
the person she has to fight in the end.

And I'm very glad that the movie didn't go
that way, but it just made me appreciate

even more because like going into it,
I was like, okay, well, if it's not

Molina, who, who realistically could
the reveal of taskmaster be in the MCU?

And there just wasn't anybody
that seemed to fit the bill.

And so I'm glad it ended up being the
character of Drake Huff's daughter.

Uh, because I think you, you mentioned
a Jude, like it just fits so much

better dramatically to the story
that this is the thing that Natasha

has to come to face, uh, face to
face with to reconcile her past.

Tara: Yeah.

It's always effective when the
villain or the antagonist, whoever.

Your protagonist has to face, right.

Has to confront and fight
be that physically or not.

If that antagonist is some type of like
external manifestation of the internal

struggle and conflict that th that the
protectiveness has, you know what I mean?

So it was perfectly done in that way.

Jude: Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Cause I mean, right.

She had to, I mean, she's, she's trying to
correct her past and she gets, and she has

to literally face her past, you know, and,
and that, and it was just so well done.

Yeah.

Trey: So, uh, what about you, Tara?

What were, what were some things
that surprised you about black widow?

Tara: Well, one of the things that
I wanted to zero in on was the

credit scene that they put toward
at the beginning of the movie,

after the cold open, so to speak.

And as far as I understand,
that's the first time.

Since the incredible Hulk that one
of these MCU films has had the credit

scene, where you get all of the actors
names and like the big producers and

all of those people in the film at the,
you know, at the beginning of the film.

And I was especially struck by and yeah,
surprised by the tone of that credit

scene and some of the extremely haunting
images within that credit scene, the

cover of smells like teen spirit was.

Also appropriately haunting and set
a tone that I was not expecting.

It was a very dark tone and the
rest of the film didn't carry a

dark tone consistently throughout.

Um, but I also thought that it was,
it was appropriate in that, like, you

know, you are about to watch a film
that as much as there might be some

hope in this film, uh, this is also
a character who came to a tragic end.

So, uh, that examination of the darkest
parts of her past being part of that

credit scene and, uh, kind of doing
that exposition of her childhood

experience in that way was something
that I wasn't necessarily expecting,

but it was something that I thought
worked very effectively for me.

I don't know if that's going
to be true across the board.

Um, if that took some people out.

If some viewers were, were confused
by that, or if some viewers would have

preferred to see the story explicitly
go into more of that part of her

life, but it was absolutely jarring
and haunting and beautiful and sad.

And, uh, I think that it did surprise
me that this movie dealt with abuse and

control and autonomy and these types
of themes and in such a dark, in such a

Trey: dark way.

Yeah.

To speak to what you were saying
about how heavy it was like that,

those opening sequence, uh, past
the part of seeing the family life.

And we get those flashes
with the title sequence.

I was like, am I in the right movie?

Like, this felt so different than
anything we've seen in the MC.

And I think.

plus one, what you were saying about
being effective, like as, as disorienting

as their childhood was, because I think
Natasha already had an idea of it being

staged, but for Yelaina it was real to
her, as she says later on in the film.

So creating that gut punch and showing
us all in that title sequence, how

disorienting that life was, I think
helps set the tone for the rest of the

movie, um, while not having to stay
that heavy tone throughout, like, it

was so effective in the beginning,
they were able to ride that emotional,

uh, catharsis to the point we see the
other black widows freed because we

know how dark it was in the beginning.

Jude: Yeah, absolutely.

It's going to be on a.

By the time we choose things.

By the time we finished those
opening credits, I was tearing up.

Like, I, I wasn't expecting
how intense that was.

And I love that we, the very next shot
coming off of that is black widow,

Natasha putting cold water in her face.

And it was like, cause that's exactly how
I felt like I was just like, I get it.

I want to do the same thing after
watching what, what was just there.

And so I think that was probably
the most surprising thing to

me was just how intense it was.

And it still had its Marvel MCU
moments, but I was really surprised how

intense it was all the way through it.

I don't want to say this because it's
going to, no, I'm going to say this, but

I don't want to say this and have it come
across as if it was, I mean, in a negative

way because I don't, but it felt like
some of the action, action sequences.

Were there because they had to be, because
it's an MCU movie, if that makes sense.

Not that it was bad, but it was like, it
was so totally different, you know, from,

from those themes in particular, which I
love the sequence, thinking about the, uh,

breaking out red guardian from the prison.

I love the sequence, but it was, so it
was your typical MTU Marvel kind of action

piece that I'm glad I got to see black
widow have that scene, but for the rest

of a lot of the themes and everything
that tackled, it was just so different.

Trey: Yeah.

Yeah.

I know

Tara: for this on the table as go ahead.

Well, I guess what I was going to say,
thinking about what you'd was just saying

is like, just to kind of put this on the
table, but like, you know, maybe to table

it for a future conversation is like, I
wonder to what extent currently in the

realm of the MCU, that there are writers
and directors and people, creatives

being hired, who have these ideas to go
to these really, um, maybe, maybe really

different or really dark or whatever,
they may be types of places in the story.

And then our.

Kind of like, you know, slotting
in the, here are the genre

conventions, you know what I mean?

Like I wonder just how
exactly that's working.

Cause I know the MCU has attracted
so many of these creatives who are

really, really unique in what they
do and they're all kind of bringing

their own brand to the MCU and that's
part of what makes the MCU so great.

Right?

Is that like there's a consistency
to all of it across the board and

yet at the same time, there's also
the individual flare that you get.

Um, so again, just kind of throwing
that out there as I wonder if we're

going to continue to see more of that.

And, and certainly what we've seen
in quote unquote, phase four, even

in the Disney plus shows is so much
of this exploration of the trauma and

grief and these really dark themes.

It's interesting,

Trey: you know, that that's a
good point, Tara, about the.

Phase four is exploring a lot of
the trauma of these characters.

Um, one of the feelings that I had
is it took me a second to readjust

to the pace of a Marvel movie,
because I think I have been spoiled

by the shows, having time to breathe.

And it's not necessarily a bad thing,
but it, it makes me feel like I'm a

little closer to what you were saying,
Jude about like, oh, this is, this is

here because this is a Marvel movie.

And there were so many, like this
action set piece led to this one

and to the next one and so on.

And it's not bad because I think the
thing that makes the Marvel movie

special is that they can still find a
way to pair those narrative moments.

But it was for a second of me, it's
just being like, oh man, like I

need, I need to catch my breath.

This just keeps going.

Like, I think it was in that scene
where you, Elena and Natasha were like

driving away from taskmaster in the tank.

And I'm like, man, I'm still,
I'm still give me a second.

Jude: You know what?

I had a similar feeling.

Cause I, I, I think it was when they
went down into the subway and my thought

was, was, was, is this what the rest of
this movie is going to be just to chase?

Like, like, cause, cause it,
it felt, well, we haven't had a

lot of action scenes like that
through the shows, you know?

But again, the action was great.

I don't think it was bad.

It didn't, I didn't like, oh, okay.

You know, at all, um, it is, it
is just different than what we've

been seeing since what February.

Um, and, and when you consider,
we haven't had a movie in two

Trey: years, so I do want to say
this and this is just half joke,

half actually surprised me, but man,
Malina was so cruel to that pig.

And I'm surprised that that was just
like a moment that was in the movie.

Tara: Did either of you guys get
like the vibe when Natasha was

like, okay, that's enough now.

Like I had flashbacks to the
one division scene with Mr.

Hart.

Oh yeah.

Jude: The

Tara: stop it.

So,

Jude: yeah, that's a good goal.

That's where my that's where my brain.

No, I.

Yeah, that's a good, that's a good call.

Now.

My brain, I was just, I was right there
with Natasha, like before she even had

that line, I was just like the pig.

Like, are we really going to watch
a pig pig, suffocate to death?

I know it's not a real big, but
I don't really want to see this.

Like,

Trey: it was real to me.

Jude: Okay.

You're leaving

Trey: now.

I will say this because I talked
about how I was so expecting a

Molina to turn out, to be taskmaster.

I thought this was going to be the
show's like subtle hint of like,

oh, she's not who we think she is,
because this is very, very cruel.

What they're doing to the page.

Well,

Jude: yeah, I mean, she's even
like, ah, she, he has 11 more,

what does 11 more seconds?

And he'll be fine.

I was like, no, no, I'll be
on like watching the show.

Okay.

So my youngest daughter saw the trailer
and wanted to go see black widow.

And typically, and I kind of jokingly
used this as an excuse to see it twice

within the first weekend where it's
like, no, I gotta go see it first.

And then we'll decide which, I mean,
for the Spider-Man movies, you know,

and honestly, infinity war and end
game, all three of my girls were

like, no, we're going right away.

We're not, we're not waiting, but this one
in the middle of it, even just that scene

with the pig, like, I don't know if I can
take them, like how intense and, and some

of the stuff just cause my oldest pro.

Yeah.

But my younger two, I don't, I
don't know for them, especially

like my middle daughter.

You know, they were watching a movie
and a, and you know, your typical, you

think a character dies, but they didn't.

And she, you know, we would watch a
movie and she just started balling

their dead why and stuff, and, you
know, almost couldn't finish it.

She would lose it at the big

Tara: scene.

So was rise of Skywalker, a problem
with the, you know, really ridiculous

Jude: Chewbacca man, because I
consider, I consider myself protecting

them by not having shown them yet.

Rise of Skywalker.

Tara: You're protecting them in.

Jude: Oh, yeah.

So yeah, they have not

Tara: seen that one yet.

Sorry for being that person who I
had to bring up a rise of Skywalker.

No, it's okay.

Jude: We're in the right place.

I stopped just short of saying, being a
good parent by not showing it to them.

That's really my thought.

Trey: Oh man.

We, at some point we just, all
three have to just do a star

wars episode and just take Jack.

Tara: That'd be great.

Trey: This is your
invitation to your Atara.

Tara: That sounds like a lot of

Trey: fun.

So like we said, this was going to be
just our initial reactions to seeing

black widow, um, I think that's going
to do it, but before we wrap up, I think

the easiest way to do this is just to
talk about some of our favorite moments.

Uh, if Tara, if we can start
with you, what were some of your

favorite moments of black widow?

Tara: Sure.

So I did already mention the credit
sequence, which as much as it

surprised me, it also, I'm counting
it among my favorite moments

because it really, really stood out.

Um, but in addition to that, be I
have a few other ones kind of just

going chronologically in order.

Uh, one of the other ones that
really stood out to me was when

taskmaster runs into Natasha's car,
on the bridge and she's listening

to a song that's like very 2016.

And I thought that was great.

It's a cheap thrills, I think.

And, um, when the, when she like her
car gets completely smashed, um, it

legitimately scared me like, uh, and the
person sitting next to me too, it was

like, we like kind of jumped a little bit.

And uh, so that's.

And I've only seen it once by the way.

And I don't know if I spoke with you,
did you see it more than once yet?

Or just once I've

Trey: seen it once I've only seen it
once and that as of this moment, I

haven't done the premier access yet, but

Jude: say totally premier
access yet, but I do plan on it.

Yeah.

Tara: Okay, cool.

Yeah.

And I, the only reason why I brought that
up is because for me, like thinking about

favorite moments, I, it, it's, it's a
very fun mental exercise to really think

about like what stood out just on the
first watch before seeing it multiple

times before looking at, you know, maybe
listening to other podcasts or before

looking at too much discourse online other
than maybe some tweets here and there.

So, um, so yeah, that scene really
stood out to me because it got

a reaction out of me and other
people in the theater as well.

So after that scene, um, the
Natasha Angelina fight scene,

when they first reunite.

Really cool.

A great hand to hand combat scene.

I think I mentioned previously, I
don't know if I did the car chase

scene or one of you guys mentioned
the car chase scene, which I thought

was really great action set piece.

I also alluded to the scene where Yulaina
gets emotional at the dinner table with

the like quote unquote family reunion.

That whole part was
really, really well done.

You guys mentioned that the pig aspect,
which was pretty disturbing, um, but

the conversation between all of them,
the whole like stop slouching, just

like that kind of, um, just like the
families feel like these four people who.

Re biologically or not family.

Right?

Like th their family construct
was completely created for

these ulterior motives.

And yet here they are thrown
together again and navigating

what that relationship is.

I thought that was really
interesting to watch.

And it was also funny and it was
also sweet and it was also sad.

And so I liked that scene a lot.

And, um, And, uh, just to add to that
too, uh, following that scene up red

guardian in the room with Yulaina
when they were singing American pie

right before the house was invaded,
I thought that was really well done.

Trey: Uh, I think the most out of
any of it, just like the, the, the,

just Alexi trying to reconnect, and
this is the only thing he could as a

proof of, like, it was real to me too.

It was like, oh, the water

Tara: works.

It was really relevant.

Well done.

And it, it got to her too, because she
started singing a little bit too and

started smiling and, and nothing else
was getting through to her when he

was trying to talk when she, when he
was trying to like, level with her and

just be like, yeah, well, my father,
you know, and it just wasn't working.

Um, but I, I thought that
was really beautiful.

I thought the choice of American pie
as a song was really, um, really well

done for what that song represents.

Jude: Um,

Tara: yeah.

Yeah.

And then I guess the last one that
really stood out to me, I mean, this

was a fantastic like movie and, and
I think the more times I see it,

there are going to be more scenes.

But yeah, the last one that I had
noted was, and perhaps, perhaps my

absolute favorite was when Natasha
was coaxing Drake off to hit her.

And the way, like the ways that Scarlett
Johannson performed it, I was just so, so

great to me, like just so compelling and
the way that she kind of smiled at him.

And it was just, it was a
weird Sterling type of scene.

And then of course she follows it
up with like, you know, the sever,

the nerve line and injuring herself.

And that's a scene I'm really looking
forward to rewatching because, cause

it was dark and, uh, Upsetting.

And yet the way she performed it with
the, I mean, in the character, right.

Having such kind of confidence,
um, it's just very intriguing.

So I'm looking forward to revisiting that.

Trey: Yeah.

I don't know if anyone has made
breaking their nose look as cool

as black widow did for them.

And to fall, to, to, to preface
it by saying, because you

weren't strong enough to do this.

I have to.

And then just bam.

And I was like, oh man, she's so cool.

It was

Tara: pretty awesome.

Trey: So, uh, what about you ju do you
have some favorite moments from the movie?

Uh,

Jude: yeah, I too.

I love the opening sequence with the
family and the choice of American pie.

That was great.

The other two things that there's a
lot of scenes that stood out to me,

but the other two that really stood
out the most when red guardian was

doing the arm wrestling contest.

Mm.

And you know, talking about, uh,
fighting captain America in 83, and

then the next chart to call him on it.

Like he was still frozen.

Like, what are you, what
are you talking about?

There was a small part of me.

Okay.

So you mentioned thinking
about the wand division scene.

There was a small part of me that, that
my head went to Isaiah Bradley was like,

oh, I was hoping it would be pin him.

Uh, I know within the show
continuity, it wasn't, you know,

um, but my head kind of went there.

Oh, maybe he fought as a Bradley.

That scene really stood out to me.

And I really liked the scene where
she was making fun of her for

the poses and culinary opposers.

And because I just kept thinking, like,
they're talking about which one's a

killer and stuff, but they're in this gas
station and she's doing that like right

in front of the person that works there.

Yeah.

And, and I just, you know, okay, so
they're talking English and he doesn't

understand English otherwise, like you're
having this debate on, who's a killer, at

least I'm a killer, that's helping people.

And, and, and I just thought that was,
it was so funny, cause it was such

a good moment between them, but also
the place in which they were having

that conversation, which just was just
comic was, was just also comical to me.

So those, those scenes
really jumped out to me.

Trey: I can jump into mine because
it pairs with yours, dude, you know,

the, the conversation about the pose
and how you Lana didn't understand it.

The one that got me the most was
actually in the red room where she

takes out one of the guards and
she finishes by doing the pose.

And then gets up and just kinda
like pretends to gag and just

like, oh, I don't like that.

And it was just like, what
a great followup to an

established bit in the beginning.

Um, I really, really enjoyed that.

And then, uh, another one that I enjoy,
it's just the whole sequencing of,

you know, cause they, they played, it
were like, okay, maybe Molina is not

taskmaster, but does look like she is
still in cahoots with Drake off and they

pulled off the face mask switch again.

And it was that classic heist of like,
we're going to explain what we're doing

while we're doing it because of editing
and it's going to feel so seamless.

Like not only was it a celebration of
stuff we've seen, uh, Natasha do back

in winter soldier, but it's just such
a great trope of like in movies that

it just, I really, really enjoyed that.

That was great.

And I get, I mean, this one feels like an
obvious one, but just to throw it in here,

because to give us a chance to talk about
it, uh, the integ, like I was so expecting

this movie, like not expecting it going
in, but when we were watching the in tag

and we see Elena do the whistle and I was
like, no, there's no way they're going to

give us a hint that Natasha might be back.

And then they immediately disrupted
with, uh, contested blowing her nose.

That was such a great way
to set up that moment.

Jude: You know what interesting.

I was kind of expecting the whistle
back, but it being, um, like Hawkeye.

Oh, um, but I guess we
did get to see Hawkeye.

Tara: Yeah.

I was wondering if Hawkeye was
going to make more of a, of

an appearance in this movie.

Um, like a fuller cameo.

I mean, obviously he didn't
really make a cameo at all.

It was just a picture of him, but,
um, obviously they, they addressed

his, his existence there in the end
and there was the whole Budapest bit.

And so obviously that was kind
of a reference to him as well.

But, um, that was one thing
that I wasn't sure going in.

I thought maybe we would see
a little bit more of him.

And I guess instead of putting him in
this, they're kind of more setting up,

uh, where that might go in the future.

But the, uh, I'll tell you the
audience in the theater that I

was in all gasped at that moment.

And a guy got a reaction it's so

Jude: fun to be in the theater and they
get that kind of collective reaction.

Yeah.

Now I did text this with Trey.

We usually don't talk about, and we
know we're going to review something.

We usually don't talk about
it in until the review or,

and I guess react or whatever.

I'm really glad we got to see
Falcon, winter soldier first and

was introduced to, uh, to Valentina
there rather than at the end.

That's an

Tara: interesting thought.

I was curious about whether or not
they changed her scene after the

right, like once the timeline of the
release changed and they realized

she was going to be in Falcon first.

I was curious if they actually adjusted
what her scene in black widow was,

but maybe they didn't, maybe they
only adjusted her scene in Falcon.

I'm

Jude: not sure.

Um, I, that that'll probably come out,
but I'm really curious to know about that.

Yeah.

Trey: And so just, just for context,
uh, the original timeline of these

movies, I believe was that in 2020
Blackwood, it was going to come out.

And then that August, this is the
one I'm a little iffy on that.

August is when Falcon and the winter
soldier was supposed to come out.

So it should have been this first,
um, which I agree with Jude.

I do like, because it makes her appearance
a lot more meaningful having seen her

and fogging in the winter soldier.

Uh, but that's also a good point on your
entire that they could have changed this

knowing, uh, the way things played out.

So yeah, it'd be good to
get some answers on that.

The

Jude: only, the only reason why I'm not,
I well, and I'm sure it'll come out, but

I've, I've seen stories and heard stories.

Uh, I think from the director
of Shortland, Cate Shortland,

that, that the black widow is
literally just like finished and

sitting on the shelf for a year.

Tara: Okay.

Um,

Jude: I mean, that doesn't mean
they can't do something, you know?

I mean, cause once they know before
they put it on the shelf, they're

going to start knowing as they change
release dates, you know what I mean?

And move and shuffle those around.

So.

So, yeah, I can't wait to
see some of these interviews.

We'll see.

We'll see what happens.

Totally.

Trey: Yeah.

Well, I think that's going to do it for
these quick reactions to blank widows.

So I do want to say Tara, thank you so
much for joining us, joining us on this.

It's been a long time coming and
I'm so glad we finally got to,

uh, do this episode together.

Tara: Me too.

This was a blast and I, for any,
any listeners who, who don't know, I

know, I, I think we've addressed this
a couple of times, but this was the,

the first proposition from you guys
about me, guessing on your show was,

Hey, let's do a black widow reactions.

And that's when we were all
idealist thinking that was

going to come out last summer.

So it does feel very much like
full circle that we're finally here

and gotta talk about it together.

And it was really a lot of fun.

So thank you for having me.

Thank you for coming.

Trey: Yeah.

And of course, if you're listening and
you enjoyed this episode and especially

terrorists thoughts, you can find more of
her insights on black widow and a lot more

in the MCU by subscribing to our podcast,
there was an idea, a Marvel cinematic

universe podcast, um, and be sure to
follow them on Twitter and Instagram

at an idea underscore podcast, really,
really great follows and subscribe.

Thank you.

Uh, this episode, if you'd like to comment
or leave us with any of your thoughts,

you can always reach us at MCD to know
on Twitter and Instagram, or if you'd

like to join our discord, uh, you can
find a link to it in the show notes.

It's a lovely community of people who are
just as excited about the MCU as we are.

And, uh, you can join in the conversation.

Jude: Yeah.

And when you make your way over to
the discord, make sure you go to the

role of sign, click on the eye emojis.

It'll give you access to all our
spoiler channels and the most recent

spoiler channel for black widow.

Also, please be sure to follow us
where you ever, you get your podcast,

a rating and reviews for feedback
on apple podcast is always helpful.

Then of course, the biggest thing you
can do for us is to share with a friend.

Yeah.

Trey: We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy
for the use of our theme song, which

is his rendition of the Avengers theme.

You can find more of his
work on a SoundCloud, which

is linked in the show notes.

All right, that's going to do it.

Thank you so much for
listening and June Tara.

Thank you so much for

Jude: doing this.

Thank you, Trey.

Thank you, Tara.

Tara: Thanks guys.

Trey: We'll see you all next week.

Well, you know, like we said, this
was going to be just kind of quick

initial reactions of black widow.

So I think the best way that we can put
a wrap on this is just to go through some

of our favorite moments of the movie.

Um, and Terra, if we can start with
you, uh, what were some of your

favorite movies from black widow?

I said that wrong.

Let me start.

What was your favorite movie in black?

Tara: Well, I liked the part when
in the credits they were watching

the television show, duck tales,
which is not exactly a movie,

Jude: but in my heart, it's a
movie cause I've binged them

and they're all run together.

Trey: There you go.

Okay.

Let me start over.

It's been a long week.

I apologize.

Tara: It's fair.

We've all been podcasting like crazy.

Jude: 1, 2, 3.

This is our fourth recording this week.

Hmm.

Tara: Wow.

I, yeah, I guess technically
it's my fourth recording

Trey: too.

Yeah.

No.

Okay.

So let me, let me get back into.