Captain America: The Winter Soldier Retrospective Review (Part One) + Moon Knight Reactions!
This episode is both a look ahead to the future with Moon Knight Reactions, as well as a retrospective review of Captain America: The Winter Soldier! Buckle up because it's only part one of our two-part Winter Soldier coverage!
Trey: Hello, and welcome back to another
episode of MCU Need to Know, a podcast
dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic
Universe and everything you need to know.
Jude: I'm Jude, how you doing Trey?
Trey: I'm oddly nervous made on save.
I don't know what it is, but ever since we
were tasked with doing this episode on The
Winter Soldier I've been stressed and the
way it happened, where we were just kind
of like trying to figure out what it is we
were going to record this week and we're
like, Hey, let's just do winter soldier.
It was, I agreed to it.
And that immediate was
like, oh no, I don't
Jude: So I had a ,friend,
friend from work,
Trey: You know Bruce Banner?
I've been holding it back, uh, but
like a friend from work today, he was
like, what are y'all doing on the one.
I was like, we're recording
on winter soldier.
And he said, oh yeah,
I saw that on Twitter.
I can't wait.
You know, to see what y'all
have to say about that.
Uh, hope you don't mess it up.
And I know he was playing with
me, but I'm just like, man, this
is so many people's top five that
I was like, oh, I might get sick.
And just like call in friend
Daniel or something to replace me.
Trey: Oh man.
No, I, I feel that, I mean, you're
totally right about it being the number
one favorite movie for so many people.
But for me, like I, since we've done
this podcast, like, it's my number one.
I love this movie.
It's my favorite.
So I know we're just like talking
about it, but there's this feeling
of wanting to do it justice.
That was more pressure
than I've ever felt.
Taking notes for a
Jude: show, like knowing that this
is the one you've seen the most.
It has been like your top.
I, there was a part of me that was just
like, I don't have to prep for this.
Trey's got it.
And I'm just gonna sit
back and let them go.
Like, just let him gosh, about his, you
know, about his bliss and, and cap so
Trey: well, uh, thanks to anxiety.
I've watched it instead
of going off the cuff.
Oh, well of course, we're going to
be talking about captain America, the
winter soldier here in a few, but one
of the things we wanted to do here at
the top of the show is talk moon night.
At the time of this episode, it will
have been a week since we got the first
trailer of moon night, which we now
know will be dropping on March 30th.
So now that we've seen the
trailer, uh, what are some of
your reactions to Moonlight?
Jude: Jude Moonlight as a character?
I not as familiar with.
And I, I was excited about it because
I knew enough about the character to
say, okay, this is going to be awesome.
Or this is going to be
cool or fun, you know?
Um, actually put it this way better.
This is going to be something different.
It felt like, and then
I scribed it got cash.
I was like, wow, he's good.
I think though your text to me said it
best when, or like I had the feeling,
but you really put the words to it.
It was so cinematic.
Like if that, even the poster, like
if I didn't know, it was a Disney
plus show, it looked like I was
watching a trailer for a movie.
The poster looked like it
was something for a movie.
And I think more so than any
of the other Disney plus shows.
Trey: And to go out on that limb with you,
um, you know, I've talked about this on
my personal Twitter, but I haven't really
said much of it here on the pod, but one
of my smaller personal goals this year
is to watch movies outside of the MCU.
Like more of them, because as much
as I love it, if you just only have
a diet of these superhero Marvel
movies at a certain point, you lose
that contrast of something else.
And so as I've been watching more,
it's like, I've started to realize
like, okay, I see what the commonality
of the look is of these shows.
Moon night feels like it's breaking
past that look in a way that I
haven't felt in any of the Disney plus
shows and even in some of the movies
themselves, like it looked phenomenal.
Jude: I'm, I am really,
really pumped for that.
Um, and saying we're, we're doing that.
Like just to take her there.
I'm I even have a note on my iPhone.
And so I don't lose track
because the goal is 52.
Non Marvel movies this year.
Um, oh, wow.
I wonder I'm going to probably
end up with more than that.
Um, hopefully, but like, just like once
a week, once a week and I, Amy and I,
we got our, our movie picked for this
weekend, so yeah, that's fantastic.
But, but again, you're right.
Like it just looked and felt
Trey: different and I like the
area that they're playing in it.
Cause it feels like man, the talk of
post in game life is this intrigued
into the horror aspect of the MCU.
Like trying to create that side of the
world that we haven't seen before we
knew that was kind of the talk with duck
strange in the multi-verse of madness.
That's wavered a little bit, but with
moon night, like I'm almost positive.
He was beating up a werewolf
like that is a horror aspect of
the EMC we haven't seen before.
And I like that what they're
doing there as well as.
And I want to be careful when I say
this, because I do think there needs
to be a cautious needle thread of how
they handle the mental illness with,
with, uh, Oscar Isaac's character.
But it feels like a very interesting
place to play in if they can do it, right?
So I sent my friend, Sean it's
wheat from not on Twitter.
Like I texted him, I shared the tweet
with him and this was this last Saturday.
And it was the whole first
tease to the trailer.
You know, you had that really
quick snippet of things.
And he said that same thing, pretty sure
he's punching a werewolf by the way.
And this was before the actual
trailer dropped and within the,
the T's, uh, And he showed up.
And w what was it?
I think the first issue
is werewolf by night.
Trey: I want to say yes, because of
the conversation that I had with JB
fancy in our, who is Moonlight episode,
Jude: you know what, I'm so funny.
I write into a coworker cause you know, I
was at work and he asks about Moonlight.
He's like, I don't know anything about it.
He goes, he had, he ain't
even seen the trailer yet.
And super nice guy, super excited.
And the Oscar Isaac draw was actually
for him, like dude, Oscar eyes, isn't it.
He didn't even know Oscar,
Isaac wasn't until I told him.
And he's like, I'm, I'm sold he's at it.
And so I was like, I'll send you
a, send you a couple of links.
So you know something about midnight.
And one of them I sent was you with JV.
Um, is like, yeah, listen to
this pod, watch this video.
And I still, I read it Jamie fancy pants.
Uh, I did back then and I still do so,
so yeah, JV you're coming back, buddy.
Trey: We need to get them back on,
especially before moon night, but
for sure, whenever moon night drops,
we're afraid to get JV back on.
Cause he's our resident moon night expert.
So like we said, these were just
quick reactions, but I don't think
we can get out of this without at
least putting this on the record.
What'd you think of the suit?
I liked it.
Jude: I liked it a lot.
Again, not, I I've seen a variety of
different images, I guess, from the comic
on the, on the suit, from what they did.
And I think the way they went
with it, uh, again, not knowing
fully how the suit works.
Cause I don't think, I don't think in
the comic or maybe it depends on the run.
It wasn't like it was something
like body armor or something he
wore, you know, I don't remember.
I wasn't aware of it acting kind of
like the way spawns did were just
kind of came on to him and off.
Uh, and even that's kind of a
terrible analogy, but anyways, but
Trey: yeah, it's, it's such a cool look.
They haven't materialized on
him in that moment, which we
don't, I I'll speak for me.
I don't know the rules of it, but based
on the pairing of that one character
that says something to the extent of
unleashed the chaos, just allowing that
side of him to come out, it almost feels
like it's its own entity that that takes
control, which fits into the space.
They're playing with
the multiple identities.
Um, it's a very interesting visual
look to, to, to inhabit that the
only thing I'm not sold on and I'm
hoping that this is just something I
need to see in more direct emotion.
I don't know if I like the glowing eyes.
They look a little too piercing
and it feels distracting.
Jude: I can see that.
But what comes to mind, especially
with this first trailer is in very
broad terms for people listening.
Very broad terms.
If you haven't seen
Spiderman, no way home.
And actually it's interesting.
You're going to see a different movie than
I saw because visually speaking, because
we know so many went back in and touched
up some visual effects, you know, and
just made some things sharper is it's not
like drastic changes to the movie in all
that to say, we know that that happened.
So I'm wondering if the effects
aren't actually done on the suit.
Um, and we're going to see
Trey: some touching up and I can see that.
I mean, how often, like, I think
even again, using the same, uh, broad
strokes that you're speaking with and
no way home, you can see it based on
the trailers and some of the color
grading that we got and the initial
ones versus the final product, versus
what people who haven't seen it yet.
We'll eventually see that's
different from what we saw.
So that's a good point.
Hopefully that'll will
assuage any concerns.
And again, it's, it's something,
you know how sometimes some
things are just better in motion.
It was too quick of a
shot for it to settle.
I think so.
Jude: It's interesting.
When, when you know, I'm just going to
say this, cause I don't know we need
to move on, but it seems to be that
getting the eyes right in these movies
can be difficult when you have masks.
Trey: It's just, you know, so much
emotion comes from the eyes that you
just, you, if you don't get it right.
It just kind of renders the,
the acting ability moot.
Yeah, well, yeah.
Uh, before we move out of moon night,
uh, we did want to take a few moments to
mention that, uh, unfortunately there has
been some sad news in regards to the show,
an actor by the name of Gaspard, U Lele,
uh, unfortunately passed away this week.
It was an unfortunate skiing accident
where I think it was a head-on collision.
And, uh, at the age of 37,
he unfortunately passed away.
Um, so that's, that's something
that we wanted to sure.
And of course we'll link to
the full story in the show now.
So, yeah, that's a, that's something
we'll definitely be keeping in
mind as we get closer to March 30th
when the show, uh, airs and we'll
get to see the contributions that
this actor had towards that show.
But moving on, uh, if you downloaded
this episode, he, you know, we're
going to be talking about captain
America, the winter soldier.
Uh, it's been a while since we've
done a retrospective review.
So just to set the stage, uh, there
are no spoilers zones for this
particular movie because it is one
that has been out for quite a while,
but we are going to be breaking it
down into a three act structure.
So act one is going to take us
from the beginning of the movie all
the way to the moment that Steve
Rogers is called into shield for
questioning by Alexander Pierce.
Uh, so Jude starting with you, where
would you like to start and act one?
Uh, hold on.
Was that yeah.
Was that Bookie's therapist?
Trey: Is that really, was that the same
Ruined captain America,
winter soldier, right?
Trey: Know captain America, the
Jude: winter soldier now.
It's a difference of a colon and an, and,
and trust me, it is not made
it easy on social media trying
to promote this day podcast.
Jude: Well, you know, I mean, we
have, we have a new cap, right.
Uh, you know what, here's
what I'm gonna start.
Uh, and you know, we put a
call out leading up to this
recording to find out from people.
What was there, the first scene?
You know, the first thing they think of
the first thing that comes to mind, I'm
with earth 8, 9, 4 podcast on Instagram.
They posted definitely the very opening
sequence, kind of a calm before the storm.
And I like it like that whole sequence.
They're just that calm.
You know, this training, not montage,
but it almost kind of felt like a montage
for as many times as cap lapped, uh, Sam
Wilson, you know, and then we get black
widow and then, you know, goes right
into, you know, kept doing his thing.
And so, yeah, so it's, I loved it.
I, in, in terms of like how they started
it, uh, and I just, I just wanted to
highlight that cause, cause that whole,
it was like, it's like they, they knew how
to ease us into this really action packed
Trey: movie, almost definitely.
And, and it works on so
many wonderful levels.
Like you said it introduces Sam and,
and gives personality to Steve in a way
that the first Avenger and a vendor's
movie didn't really have time to do.
Uh, you know, we talked about it a lot
whenever we did our retrospective review
on captain America, the first Avenger.
And that's one of the, I guess,
issues is the word I'll use.
One of the issues that comes to with
characters like Steve Rogers, is that you
can fall into that pit of being one note.
It is a character who has
the burden of being right.
Uh, and I, and I say that loosely because
you know, it is still written by people.
So there is the fallibility of that,
but at the heart of who captain
America is, that's supposed to be
the example, I guess, if that may
be a better way for me to put it.
So it never really leaves room for showing
who this person is on the quieter side.
And to have this moment
of almost reflecting.
Where he is, you know, doing
something for himself, he's
exercising, he's staying in shape.
And he finds that commonality with Sam.
It gives us a glimpse into who the person
is when all we have seen is the mantle.
And it's fantastic.
Um, and again, and I want to say
this too, here at the top, because
this is going to be a reoccurring
theme and as cheesy as it sounds.
Friendship is the theme of the movie,
like in contrast to the conspiracy
and the paranoia of who you can
or can't trust the people that you
rely on and the people that you call
friends, those are the people you
turn to in those moments of doubt.
And so, even though we don't know it upon
first watch what becomes enriching on
multiple re watches, which I have done
multiple of is you get a, a broad spectrum
of how those friendships take place.
You have that budding relationship
with Sam and Steve and how they're
kind of learning each other's
comfortability with teasing each other.
And then you have the established
relationship with Natasha where she's
like, Hey, I'm here to pick up a fossil.
And he's like, hilarious.
Like, it's just, it's.
It is the driving force for the
answer that we will eventually
get to at the beginning.
And the fact that it happens so quickly
here at the top is, is brilliant.
Well, and it's interesting, you
mentioned that because you have the
LNR, I would say you have the illusion
of friendship with Natasha, uh, as you,
as you watch in the questioning that
they have together li uh, that they,
uh, that Rogers has of Natasha, as you
know, we get in later into the movie.
Um, and so it appears as friends,
but as you get, you kind of see, it's
like, no, they're not as friendly
as it is not friendly, not the right
word, but they're not friends yet.
And in that sense either.
So I think that's really
It's almost like you have to see it go on.
Trial, like we've talked about it before
and I forgot exactly the way you put it,
but that's what relationships are you
get to this point where you build up this
person, something happens that tests, the
idea of who you think this person is, and
you either grow upon it or it dissolves.
And that's what makes it special with
Steven and Natasha that it does grow.
Um, and so I like, and this isn't
trying to repeat what you said.
I think it is important
the way you framed it.
That is there is this air
of like falseness to it.
That becomes stronger on the other side.
Like it's yeah.
This disillusionment, like, like
you meet somebody and it's great.
And you know, there there's this element
where a relationship should end naturally.
Um, but especially with this, cause like
it plays on our expectations because we,
the last time we saw them together was
Avengers, you know, So we've naturally,
oh, there their team, their friends, um,
when it's like, no, they worked together.
They worked well as a team together,
but the, the idea or the level of, you
know, like, like when she asked later,
would you trust me now to save your life?
Or, you know, or would you trust me to
save your life and like, and just thinking
about those things in the pulling through,
um, and learning how to trust each.
Like that is, was really cool
And, you know, speaking of the
other side of the spectrum with Sam,
which is most definitely a budding
relationship, um, you know, you have
talked about it multiple times and I
finally have gotten around to doing it.
I haven't finished it yet, but
I started listening to the audio
commentary track for the winter soldier.
And that was one of the thing the
Russo brothers talked about a lot in
that it was so important to get the
relationship right with Stephen Sam,
because it had to be believable that in
the moment of doubt, when everybody is
turning on Steve Rogers, it has to be
believable that Steve would go to Sam.
And that starts here in that beginning.
And it is because of that shared
military experience where.
You know, w w we've seen so much of
the MCU now, but this really feels
like one of the first examples we've
got of the outside perspective of
what it is for the Avengers and
the fact that Sam finds commonality
rather than like celebrity worship.
When Steve, I think, as the gateway,
towards their understanding of each other,
and it is a level of sincerity that might
be one of the first time Steve Rogers
has felt since waking up from the ice.
Jude: Well, and it's interesting.
Well, I've never picked up on
this, on this before, which was,
I wish they would have came back.
Like there was that exchange between
him and Sam, you know, and, and we're,
I think we're getting past, are we going
to pastor secretly along with the scene?
Trey: which scene are you talking about?
Jude: Where he talks to Sam
right before he go right.
As the thing was.
Oh at the VAM.
Trey: Yeah, no, this
Jude: is still act one.
Like, I don't know why in my head,
I was like, oh wait, I don't want to
jump too far ahead, but it's, they
didn't come back to that, to that
line, uh, early start explicitly, you
know, you know, what makes you happy?
And, and he's like, I don't know.
You know, and, and that element
of that character was that sense
of, I just saw a different light.
Like it was like, wow, like
you're, you're doing what you know,
because you're isolated right from
this whole frozen in time thing.
And so you can't really struggle to
relate to people and the, you know, so
now it's like, what makes you happy was
like, I don't, I don't know, you know,
so I'm just going to continue doing this.
Um, and, and like, that was the
feeling I got out of that scene this
time, which I don't think I've ever
had it that way before, you know, so
that's something I wish they would
have explicitly come back to, um, like
even an end game, like I get, okay.
You had your moment with peg.
Uh, Carter, but I wish I wish
somehow they would have worked
that line and that back into it.
Trey: think they try, uh, although it's
not as serviceable as based on what I'm
hearing from you that you would like.
Um, and I wonder how much of that
is us being spoiled by the expansion
of these characters lives that we
get with the Disney plus shows.
Um, but the way that I think they try is,
you know, when we get to the LA Marion
star stuff, so much of the banter between,
uh, Steve and Natasha, is that like, Hey,
well, what about her from accounting?
If you asked her out, I bet she say yes.
And he's like, yeah, that's
why I don't ask her out.
I don't, I don't have time.
So what happens immediately after this?
Did Sam ask Steve about
like, what makes you happy?
And he says, I don't know.
One of the very next things we see
him do is that flirtatious scene
between him and his neighbor.
Now the reason I don't like this being
the full answer to your question of why
they don't revisit it is because it's
such a very one note way of showing
personality outside of the job of just
trying to turn it into a relationship.
But I think it is on the mind.
It just, there wasn't
time to fully explore it.
Uh, but the thing that I think it
reminded me is the line that he has an
end game where he says, I finally did
what Tony said to do and got a life.
So it's, it's there, but you kind of
really have to scrape the surface.
Jude: Well, see, that's interesting
because I took that going back to the
age, age of Ultron, the individual trunk.
Uh, just to of the.
The conversation that they had with the
end, whereas like, Hey, what about you?
You know, have a life and get out of it.
And he's like, no, I'm home where I'm at.
And then he goes back in and
with the new Avengers team.
So I attached it more to
that scene than right here.
Um, and I think because it was between.
Well, that, that I did what Tony
said rather, this, this is a
moment between Sam and Rogers.
Trey: So I do want to say this
though, speaking more towards
the Sam side of this scene.
Uh, one of the things we got prior
to going into this is a conversation
that Steve had with Peggy and Steve
really opens up about that feeling
of isolation that you were talking
about and not really knowing.
What to do in this new world, because he
doesn't know if who he is aligns with what
they are, what they have become the, the
shield, the, the government, the military,
whatever it is, whatever institution
it is that he's trying to be a part of.
And Peggy has that advice of that.
Sometimes the only thing
you can do is start over.
And so, you know, I mentioned the
neighbor side of it with Sharon of him,
trying to have that relationship there.
But I think him also going towards
Sam is part of that starting over.
He's finally relinquishing the pass
that he was trying to cling on to,
and the people that he knew, um, and
starting something new with Sam as well.
Cause even when I say relationship, I mean
relationships in a broad term, uh, this
is a person who is outside of their time.
Who's never had time to really
process what happened with world
war II into the Avengers into now.
And so, um, being here at Sam, I think
speaks volumes about who he is and it
stuck out to me so much that if there's
any doubt, which there shouldn't be,
but if there's any doubt, why Sam
Wilson is the next captain America,
it is in that scene here where he is
leading that meeting with the veterans
and he showing that inspiration to do
better, which is something that I've.
Talked about loving so much with the
captain America character, because
it's not just about the going out
there and being the strongest or
the toughest or whatever it is,
compassion towards each other.
And I love that Steve gets to
look in on this moment because
it's not a show on Sam's part.
This is just who he is.
Jude: Yes, that whole sequence with,
uh, the veterans was really good.
But one of the things you mentioned about
that commonality, um, I think also because
of that commonality, that it helped
Salem see Rogers as a normal person.
Rather than like, oh, you're captain
America, you're an Avenger, you
know, it's like, now you were just
like me, you, you know what I mean?
Um, in the sense of service and,
and stuff, uh, cause, cause they'd
have to imagine in that world,
And maybe I'm, maybe I'm taking
some experiences of Hawkeye and
reading it back into this movie.
Um, cause I'm imagining like people are
gonna recognize captain America, you know?
Um, and, and there's probably got to just
the way people were recognizing Hawkeye.
Um, and so I, I feel like that
was probably also refreshing.
If that makes sense.
It's the, it's the
genuineness genuine sincerity.
It's not the, oh, this
is who you think I am.
You are seeing me kind of thing.
Well, you know, I love the way that you
phrased it as Sam seeing the person,
because I think one of the brilliant
things that this movie is doing is
giving us both sides of this, of captain
America and Steve Rogers and act one.
And without a doubt, the low Marion
star mission, I think is the moment
that captain America got respect.
Because so, so often, I mean, he
was kind of like, oh, he's cheesy.
He's captain America, whatever.
That moment, he gets onto the boat and
he is like going around and kicking
these people to the side and throwing
the knife and flipping them off the side.
It is a completely different
tone than what we saw of Steve
Rogers up until this point.
And before we continue that conversation,
uh, I do want to say this because this is
something that I frequently brought up,
uh, during Falcon and the winter soldier,
and that I highlighted how uncomfortable
the violence made me at times.
And I was really trying to
figure out what that was.
Um, I think I've said it before,
but I just want to set that context
here for this movie as well.
I really think that level of
uncomfortability is a change in me because
having come back to this with the intent
of taking notes, it is something that I
think sticks out to me far more than it
did when I originally watched this movie.
Uh, so that's something that I
think I'm trying to keep in mind
as I evaluate these series moving.
Um, cause my note was, and I'm just going
to read it just kicked a guy overboard.
um, you know, and well, and we
talked about this with, with the
Disney plus series, there's an L
there's, there's an element in the
opening was Sam that he was doing it.
I'm gonna oversimplify it just, but he was
doing a military operation at that point.
Um, where here Rogers was, he was
ineffective on a shield operation.
And so I think when you start talking
about the level of violence and things
like that, I think we, I think it's
okay to forgive that here in this
situation, because of, you know, at
least especially up to this point,
let's say it that way, what we know he
was going into, um, a hostage situation
you were sent in by shield, you know,
you're going to engrave a threat.
And so in that sense, like, like that
I think is where we can say, okay,
the level of violence is forgiving.
Um, but you know this as well.
Listening to the director's commentary.
And talking about that change in captain
America, the Russo brothers mentioned
in this scene that they wanted, they
wanted him to have, I think, what they
called a knockout blow for each person.
Like I got to get through them quick.
They have to be down, not get back up.
They wanted tight handheld personal
stuff with his action sequences.
Um, cause they wanted to get that captain
America has been training more now, uh,
with shield and, and this isn't your.
Captain America you're used
to, if that makes sense.
I think they talked a little bit about
that in the sequence on the commentary.
And I think they did
that really effectively.
Trey: is the evolution of the character
and to respond quickly to one of the
things you said, I don't think we will
ever get away from the fact that violence
is the language of action movies.
I mean, that's just part of it.
And so I think there is some level of.
I dunno, suspension of the
disbelief is the right word, but
it's just part of the language.
Um, and I, and I think you're right,
because the, the language they're
using here is showing, okay, captain
America, the first Avenger, here's a
guy who's never been in a fight before.
Who's immediately granted
these superhero powers.
He is a hero, but there's a
little bit of unscripted chaos
into the way that he's fighting.
It doesn't feel organized.
It just feels improvisational,
uh, Avengers, you start to get a
little bit more of that strategic
leadership role, but here in the
winter soldier, you see, he has been
under the wing of shield for a while.
So not only is it an evolution
of the character, it is.
World-building in that filling in
the gaps of time between movies.
Jude: And also keep in mind when we
really dove into the violence of Falcon
and the winter soldier versus here,
like, like this movie, It's pretty
straight forward, you know, who's good.
You know, who's bad.
It's the stand in for Nazis.
That's the, it's the, here's your
bad guy, you know, their bag.
I mean, there's even that line.
If they're shooting at you, they're
And whereas in talking to the winter
soldier, you had, you know, the bad.
So to speak, but they were bad in
that, you know, you needed somebody
for Valcon and winter's ultra to
punch, like, like you could easily
synthesize with them and what they
were doing and why they were doing it.
And we can question the means.
So, and so when, when it's like that,
then it becomes very different than
when you're, when you're talking about
violence and the level of violence
and, um, and, and what's going on
because they're because they do have,
like, they went out of their way to
have faces and stories, um, and have
people as opposed to, oh, you're a guy.
Some agent with the masculine.
I'm going to punch you.
No big deal.
Trey: And, you know, speaking of the way
that fights can be imbued with narrative,
I do want to zone in on the one with rock,
uh, specifically the one right before
he goes into the room where Nat is and
they have their fight back and forth.
And then Ben Rock's like, Hey, I thought
you were more than just a shield.
Um, you know, speaking broadly about
captain America, Steve Rogers, captain
America, his journey throughout the
entirety of the MCU is really wrestling
with who he is and how he fits into the
systems that he allegedly stands for.
And I think that's best
summarized by the farewell letter.
He wrote to Tony and civil war and
that he puts his faith in people.
And I, I, that, that takes him quite
a while within the MCU to get to,
but you can start to see it here.
This is the next step of where we've
been going because in the first Avenger,
you know, he was bred to be this
perfect soldier and then ultimately
was abandoned to be propaganda
for the military, uh, Avengers.
He has that realization that
Shield's been using hydrotech to
try and even the playing field.
So even, even in, in shield and
in the Avengers, he's finding out
that he can't fully trust them.
And that is just completely
obliterated here in winter soldier.
By the time we get to the end of
the movie of who he can or can't
trust, uh, as far as institutions go.
Um, so what I like about the bat rock
challenging of like, Hey, I thought
you were more than just a shield.
Seeing him take off the helmet and
putting up the shield on his back.
It plays to a little bit of that ego.
We talked about whenever we did our first
Avenger review about how he almost plays
with a bit of a chip on his shoulder.
Um, but I also think it helps with what
we were talking about in separating Steve
Rogers from the captain America persona.
Uh, this is, this feels kind of
driven by Steve and less what
the mission supposed to be.
And I think we have to have that
divorce of character in mantle.
If we're going to get to the point
of the second act where we really
dive deep into the character to see
where those lines begin and end.
Jude: I think that's really cool.
What you just said.
Here's why I go, one of the things, one
of the things I noticed about myself
and watching this movie and taking notes
is the evolution of my own thought.
If that makes sense from when I
first saw it to now, because the
whole thought you were more than a
shield, my thought was like, oh wow.
This, this to me is really showing a
difference between like, okay, LA sounds
weird, but I want to, I want to qualify
my statement first, when, when we're
talking about, you know, any of these
films there is, and I mentioned it a lot,
the vocabulary, the shorthand, right?
Like, like the, the intention, the
reliance of creators, showrunners
filmmakers that you are aware of,
certain things, you know, like I
saw a commercial for the iPhone 13.
That was absolutely brilliant.
A guy in the front seat of the car.
And he's like, I'm the main character
because I'm the one in focus or not.
And he's like, and he's
like, well, what if this?
And Nope, I'm still the main character.
And he goes, well, what
if I was to kill her?
And then I became in focus, like,
that's exactly what they would do.
Um, and so we had that second hand.
We, Larry cause it's easy and
it's helps us very quickly.
Oh, that's this are there.
Um, which is also very negative
as well because you know, you can
go back and watch older stuff and
you're like, oh, that's at an age.
Well, you know what I mean?
Um, now having said that, not that
I'm going to say this didn't age.
Well, for me, what it showed was the
difference between how men are portrayed,
you know, and in this hyper-masculinity.
Because he was like, you thought you
were more than a shield and like you
said, he took off the mask and did this.
Whereas when that happened in
captain Marvel, Danvers, you know,
cause like, Jude law's character
knew he couldn't beat Marvel.
So was like Denver.
So he's going to try to get it to
do a, uh, or get Danvers, to do
a one-on-one without her powers.
And she just shoots him anyways.
And it's just like, I have
nothing to prove to you.
Like, you know, but it's, it's, it is a
typical hyper-masculine response of like,
oh, challenge accepted, put this away.
And that, and that's what came
to mind this time, um, that
I'd never thought of before.
And, and again, it just, it there's
watching this, this time around is
kind of showing the evolution of my
own thought and how I watched the.
Trey: No, and I, I think that's a very
great call-out too, to point out, because
that is so much of what's impactful
of that moment in captain Marvel.
It's that realization like I
don't owe you anything and she
does her own character permit.
And so that makes me want to
re-evaluate that lens too, as well.
It's like, yeah, that is like
very male beaten my chest
Jude: and you can get, but again, I
get the Russo brothers are trying to
establish, like we talked about, right.
Captain America has evolved from
his world war II tradings and
picked up these techniques, and
this is a good way to show it.
And you're relying on the knowledge
of, of the guy playing bat
rock is an actual MMA fighter.
And so you're able to get that, but
it was just kinda like later seeing
that scene, you know, after the
captain Marvel scene, the, and the
things, it was just like, that's so.
Hyper mil, if you could shop cat.
Trey: well, you know, cause the, the thing
that I got out of it was that like, okay,
the focus of this movie is we are finding
the line between Steve Rogers and captain
America and learning how to unify that.
I think that can move us into a different
section here, um, where, you know, I, I
love how so often movies aren't really
about what we think they're about.
Like, for example, all the action
stuff, that's just what happens.
But when you really sit down and look at
this movie, it is, and I use a lowercase
P here, but it is, it is a philosophical
debate between captain America, uh, and
Nick fury and the way that they view
how to adapt into this modern world.
Uh, and the, and the meeting that they
have at the triskelion I think is, is
a great place to emphasize this because
you have that argument where Steve
walks in to the office and he's like,
you can't help yourself from lying.
Um, and, and evolves into that
point where Steve has, I think, a
very defining, uh, thesis in that
statement, soldiers trust each other.
That's what makes it an army.
To which Nick says the last time
I trusted someone, I lost an eye.
So we get a very definitive look of
these characters who are going to
undergo a change by the film's end.
And I like that.
This is what it's really about is how
far can you trade trust for what's right.
And with a character
like Steve what's right.
Is always the driving
force of his character.
And with Nick fury, even though he does
have the right intentions, it is what
level of, of trust is he willing to give
up to ensure that the right thing is done?
If that makes sense?
Jude: Oh yeah.
Like there there's it's well, hold on, I'm
going to get sidetracked really briefly
and then jump back into the thought.
Cause you had a great thought there.
Um, for those, everybody just
do me a favor, go join the
discord and let me know if.
Cause fury said, right.
I didn't, you know, for the last
person I trust, he, it's not that he
trusted a flirting, like he didn't
know as a flirt and trusted a cat.
And I'm just curious how many people,
how, how many people have their
cat people get all the discord?
Let me know, because between
the two, like I'm not a huge
pet person, but I'm definitely
trusting the dog more than the cat.
And so like I questioned Nick
Fury's judgment and that his
last person he trusted was a cat.
Um, no, but I do like that you brought
that out because it's interesting to me
in that, on the Rogers side, from, from
what you were saying, and for what I was
gathering is like the, there's a couple
of things going on, where for Rogers, he's
like the, the importance and the trust
is in the relationships in the community.
And for fury.
You know, and you have the whole
line and it's a nice line about
the eye and stuff for emphasis.
Um, but fury really is in a position
where he's like that, that he doesn't
trust anybody, which means there's a
completely breakdown in relationships
and in community, you know, and
there's still a sense of on his part.
Like at this point, he, he agrees
with Hydro's agenda, you know?
Um, it's like, No, I don't trust you.
So I'm going to put a gun to your head
and I can only trust me, you know, um,
in, later in the scene, Zola, you know,
the whole thing Zola said about what
Hydra was founded on was quote Zola.
Hydro was founded on the belief
that humanity could not be
trusted with its own freedom.
Like at this point in the movie, Fury's
agenda, like he's on board, you know?
Um, and, and so, so it's interesting
to me to, to, to see that.
And it's like, oh, it's high.
All of a sudden, like fury changes.
Oh, it's hydro, so it's bad.
But, but otherwise it really kind of
aligned with what he was thinking.
Trey: I got two things that I want
to say to that, and I'll start
here and lead into the second one.
And that if the beginning of the movie
is a distillation of where Steve Rogers
is and the way that he wants to lead
his life and his moral compass, then I
think the story that Nick fury shares
with Steve Rogers about his granddad
is the distillation of his ideology.
Um, you know, the, the story about
his granddad who used to work in
elevator and he used to get tips
and people used to be friendly.
And then as time went on,
things got a little bit rougher.
And so the granddad started
carrying a gun and he had that
line that I love so much in that.
You know, he says granddad loved people,
but he didn't trust them very much.
And then it goes down to the project
insight where he's like, yeah, I know it's
a, it's a little bit bigger than a 22.
That is such a simple story.
But I think it conveys that level
of comfort that we've developed
with each other throughout history
and simultaneously have lost.
And so the thing that I will say about
that is I felt a similar place where
you are in that it's hard not to have
a stain on Nick Fury's character, that
he was willing to do this in order
to achieve what he thought was right.
Because it's sacrificing so much to
get there, but you can see the logic.
And so the thing that I wanted to also
mention is that if this movie is saying.
The winter soldier is the problem that
Steve Rogers is facing in terms of being
like a mindless arm of an institution
than Alexander Pierce is to Nick fury.
What the winter soldier
is to Steve Rogers.
And I do think we get to a point
where we can see a little bit of
redemption on Nick fury, but man,
they bring us to some real low lows
Jude: before we get there.
Well, I'm going to jump way
ahead for a second and then
backtrack to where we're at.
But in terms of, in terms
of fury, you know, he was
looking to salvage at the end.
He's like, well, salvage and calves.
Like, no, it all has to go down.
Um, you know, so like, so like Fury's
idea was still no people can't be trusted.
And I'm going to be the one that
makes sure that people stay in line,
you know, and essentially he's like
playing this, this, this judge of,
of, you know, good, bad morality, you
know, um, and keeping people in line
Trey: well, and, and fury tries to
justify it because he pushes back
whenever Steve's like this isn't freedom.
It's fear, which iconic line, but
furious pushback was like, Hey, you
know, I read those SSR files and you
know, I, you guys did some pretty nasty
stuff and I like that it's insinuating.
There comes times where
there is compromises on the
things that we tried to do.
But the difference is is that there comes
a time where you put the weapon down,
whereas project insight is continuous
and that is the moral failing of
Well, and I would also argue just
the way project insight works.
It is a algorithm.
It is a mechanism looking for in a.
You know, so, so like in the, this
first semester with my class, we, one
of the classes was a peace and conflict
class, and we're looking at just war
theory, pacifism and all these things.
And that was one of the things I
really tried to stress to the students
that I think captain America gets
in that part of the conversation and
Nick fury didn't, which is man people
get put in unbelievably difficult
situations when you're talking about
truly in thinking about decisions of
war and battle and like in true war.
Um, and, and these conflicts with
horrific violence that people
feel driven to do those things.
And they believe themselves to be
making the most moral choice possible.
Now we can debate and
get into those things.
But I mean, but it's kind of like
the, Hey, I saw what you did.
And it's like, well, yeah, we compromise.
Like we're put in a situation where
I'm not choosing between a good and
an evil I'm choosing between something
horrific and something bad, you know?
Um, and whereas, you know, Fury's just
like, yeah, I'm that, that preemptive,
you know, I'm going to keep everybody in
line and you actually have a good choice.
It's not like you have to choose between
that and something else that's bad.
Trying to make a, you know, the
best choice between two bats.
That's not furious decision, uh, or
that's not the decision in front of
URI, but that's, that's the one, you
know, he's, he's thinks he's making it
Trey: is rare.
And even saying it this way is wrong.
It is rare that being judged,
jury and execution, executioner
is ever the right answer.
And that's what it feels like.
You know, I think we can jump
from here to one of the most, at
least for me, this is the scene.
You know, we put out that question
on social media about what's the
scene that comes to mind when
you think of winter soldier.
For me, it is that chasing with Nick fury.
Uh, again, if so much of the thesis
of this film is trust and friendship
and how far you can go with that.
The fact that this chase scene is a
microcosm of what the film is trying
to tell, I think is fantastic because
you watch all of the systems that Nick
fury has put in place slowly fail him.
So you have that slow
build of trust in that.
You know what happens when the system that
you're supposed to trust like the police
fails and which hits extra hard, given
everything we've seen with the increased
documentation of, of police brutality
and everything that came to light with
the black lives matter movements a few
years ago, But it also moves into the
section where fury is in the car himself.
And he has all these gadgets
and gizmos and the, the, the,
the ballistic proof windows.
And you've watched those slowly fail as he
tries to back himself out of the corner.
And even after he ultimately gets away
trying to get off the grid and trying
to get in contact Maria Hill, that's
where we see the winter soldier come in.
So what happens when you
have nobody around to trust?
And so you watch Nick fury go from being
the person with the most safeguards,
the most compartmentalization to
having nothing by the end of it.
And even though he quote unquote succeeds
and getting away from this car chase,
he has ultimately lost everything.
And it's such a nice little section
of the movie in an action sequence.
Jude: Really glad that you explained
it that way, because one, one of
the things from the commentary, I
love the commentary for this movie.
Well, as soon as I got it on DVD
is one of the things I watch.
And I've been telling people for years,
you got to watch this commentary.
You gotta watch this commentary.
It's so good.
And one of the concerns of the Russo
brothers and, uh, the writers was
well, a couple of things first.
It was cool that this is what they pitched
like this scene is what was the pitch and
what got them, the job and their ideas.
Like we got to match
the car, chase and heat.
Um, I haven't seen that movie in a while,
but I feel like they did it, but for them,
there was a fear that, oh, we're going to
introduce the big, bad in winter soldier.
And he fails because fear he gets away.
But what I loved about the way he
explained it is fury physically.
Gets out of that situation, but I wouldn't
say they failed just that, that the, the
position that you said, they put them
in where I, who do I trust and I'm so
alone and so isolated and they got to me.
You know, I don't think that you
can look at it and say, oh, our
big, bad, how, how bad can he be?
You know, how tough can he be?
Cause fear, he got away.
He, he, he lost a lot in that,
you know, you know what I mean?
And, or just like, of course you,
you just said all that, but I think,
I think that loss, you know, there,
I don't, I don't come away from that
feeling that, that feeling of like, oh,
you know, winter soldier is not that.
You know, cause cause of
how close they got, how
Trey: much he lost, you know
what I honestly think of a lot.
And I, and I referenced this so much,
but it's that scene if all movies it's
that scene in 300 where Leonidas throws
the spear and he just grazes Xerxes,
and all he does is make some bleed,
but you see the horror on his face.
He didn't have to kill Xerxes.
He just had to make God bleed.
And I think that's what this is
in that moment with as dramatic as
I'm framing it, that's what it is.
You have stripped the person who
is supposed to be unflappable.
And now he is, is as, as they
put it on the commentary track
playing from the back foot.
And that is the, that is the success of
the winter soldier here in this moment.
Jude: You know, it, it is interesting.
You mentioned the black
lives matter movement.
The it's weird.
I want to say the heightened awareness.
Um, but that's, I don't think it
actually accurately captures it.
Cause I think there's been the awareness
of race and those issues for a long time.
It was just, you know, when was
majority of people gonna notice,
um, but that's been going on
for, for a long time anyways.
Um, but it did make me wonder, you
know, watching the scene now that
is something that came to mind.
It was like, oh, here's a black man.
What's a police officer
here and stopping them.
And then the police and police cars, they
weren't in shield cars, like intentionally
box them in and try to get at them.
Um, and that definitely made
me see the scene differently.
Um, And I don't know.
And I'd be honest from the books I've
been reading lately and stuff like
I've had that, like, this has been
very forefront in my mind anyways.
Uh, so it could be some of that as well,
just from where my Headspace has been,
uh, in terms of what I've been doing.
But yeah, like that did
really jump out to me.
Th that's why I was very conscious
of framing it as the increased
documentation, because to say that
this is something new would be an
entire disservice because it's not new.
It's just now we are paying attention.
And unfortunately it took this
long to pay attention and to speak.
For me, that's a personal failing on
me because I have been trying to be
more cognizant of it and learn, and it
was something I wrestled with bringing
up at all, because it feels weird to
talk about something so serious when
something so trivial as a Marvel movie,
As precious as this movie has become.
And the subject matter that hit
is taken on, I think it w it was
definitely worth mentioning not only
for my own continued education and
hopefully pushing that forward, but
just showing that this is, I think it is
intentional in, on the mind of the movie.
Um, and it's something that I
know as a personal failings that
should have stuck out to me way
before everything that happened.
Uh, so it, it, it felt important
to, to bring it up here.
I'm going to shift gears a little
bit, cause, um, it feels like
inappropriate place to shift gears.
Um, still the same scene, uh, two things.
It would have been cool for me, if
they would have brought back the
little torch light saber thing.
I know they did in this movie, I'm
talking like that's a really cool gadget
that having that show up in feature
movies, you know, it's like, Hey, we
have a really cool gadget and I'm done.
It's not going to help
us in a sort of a war.
It's not going to help us, you know?
Um, who knows, maybe that's
what cap and Natasha used to get
people off the raft prison thing.
And there's a trope I
would like to have go away.
And it happened in this movie, Nick,
Fury's on the phone with Maria Hill and
she's like, Hey, give me four hours.
And he's like, you have three.
And I'm like, huh?
I get you're expressing urgency, but come
on, like Maria, Hill's a professional.
She knows what she's doing.
She needs four hours, right?
Like, like I don't, you know,
I don't know what the extra
hour early is going to get you.
I just it's like stop, you know, it's
Trey: listen, that's something
we need to do this year.
We need to keep a running list of things.
We want to see stop being used as a
trope for me, I was in, I can't say it.
We don't have a spoiler zone.
So go listen to our, uh, our hot guy.
If you want to know
what I want to see gone.
But, uh, I get
Jude: what you mean.
We're not going to tell you which
episode you got to listen to.
All of them.
Go find it.
Trey: That's marketing baby.
Jude: That's our own project insight.
Trey: My whole podcast.
No, all I was going to say
is like, I get the sentiment.
It's it's the same thing I'm
saying, like, I need it yesterday,
but it is overdone at this point.
So you know what I, I
think I'm behind you.
I can see it be gone.
Jude: I need you deep shadow, but
I don't want you to, I want you to
do it so quickly that people will
notice that you've disappeared
rather than casually late.
Trey: Come on.
Maybe Nick can take a few
lessons on a few lessons from
Natasha and escaping public eye.
We're trying to get away.
'cause you might trip,
Trey: you know, there's a part of
me that almost feels bad for framing
this as a debate between Nick and
Steve, because we see pretty quickly
that Nick fury gets humbled to the
point that we see him allegedly die.
But the thing that I think so outstanding
about their interaction is, you know,
you have Steve coming home to his
apartment and it is a bit of an ominous
scene because there's music that's
being played that he didn't leave.
And you have that whole interaction
where Nick fury eventually reveals
that he had Steve's apartment bugged.
And Steve Rogers is unfortunately
the only person that Nick fury
can trust at this point, because
all of his fail safes have failed.
Um, and there's a moment where after
the they're speaking code, Nick fury
says like, oh, the only people who know
are just me and my friends and Nick
and Steve goes, is that what we are.
Nick fury has that response.
That is it's up to you.
And the thing that speaks volumes to me
with that interaction is, you know, so
much of what I've learned of, of trust.
Cause I'll go out on that limb
and just speak broadly here.
I have trust issues like that
is something that I've struggled
with and, and trying to do better.
And one of the things that I have
learned is that trust isn't the complete
confidence in the infallibility of
someone and the way that you put your
trust in them, but the ability to
create those boundaries and repair
them upon breach, if that does happen.
Um, and so having Nick fury say that's
up to you, I think is beautiful because.
So much of what Steve Rogers
thought he can trust in that
moment is being tested here.
And we know Nick Fury's
trust has been long gone.
So it is this almost dramatic
irony that the person who cannot
trust is turning to the person that
is the only trustworthy person.
And the lesson that he's instilling
in him is don't trust anyone.
So you have this Baton pass of the
journey that Nick fury couldn't
overcome given to Steve Rogers.
And we are now having to wrestle
with Steve Rogers, questioning
who it is that he can trust.
And to go just a little bit further
on, this is again, I set it up in that.
So often characters like Steve Rogers
are written to be quote unquote,
you know, the right thing to do.
The interesting thing you can do
with these characters outside of
showing the ways that people around
them change is showing that that
redefining of who it is they are.
And I, and I've, I've
tried to set that up.
And the speaking of the delineation
between Steve Rogers and captain
America, but this is the moment
that those personalities have
split and our journey begins here.
And the thing I like is in this moment,
when you see Steve pick up the shield,
it is the red, white, and blue shield.
And it is not that stealth one that I
think is so symbolic of who he was with
shield, but this is a character who has
now picked up the quest to figure out who
he is and what it is that trust means.
Oh, I love that.
And the first thing that happens,
you know, well, it go back to the,
we talk about it and you love it.
The story circle, right.
Hero's journey, and you have the
mentor and it sits them off on the
journey and they hand them some
kind of talisman or something.
And fury gave them an object, you know,
um, that, that he had to go and run with.
Um, but then on top of that, the
wrinkle they throw in is agent
13, busted, Hey, I made you 13.
I'm here to protect you on whose
orders and his and its fury.
So it's like you have this
conversation, you know, are we friends?
You know, the response that's up to you.
It's like, it's your choice?
Like, you know, cause it is that thing
of like, when you trust somebody, it
is your choice to trust them, right?
Like, like it's your
trust you're placing over.
And the first thing that happens is,
oh, I've been, I've been being spied on
by the person needing me to trust them,
but also telling me not to trust anyone.
Like, like it's, it's such
a, a clever, I think wrinkle.
Um, then I think maybe it gets
overlooked a little bit, you know?
And because we just, maybe as
an audience, just assume, um, we
know who Nick fury is, you know?
Um, and, and so it's like, ah, obviously
you can trust a mistake theory.
Um, but if you, like you said,
if you put yourself in Roger's
spot, uh, and, and thinking about
in those terms, It tracks Rogers.
Isn't quite sure if he can trust them.
Um, and, and that was also part of
the whole opening sequence and setting
that up, uh, the busting in of, I mean,
if you did that same thing, right.
Without Asian 13 busting in, I'm
gonna say Rogers is the one that
makes the call to EMT and then chases.
Um, and I think it's a completely
different dynamic and that's,
and it's such a small moment.
It it's it, I mean, it's the same
thing that Nick fury goes through.
It's the, everything
around you falling apart.
And so even the things that Steve
thought was real, this is where it
begins with with agent 13 coming in.
You can't even trust
that small interaction.
So what is real in this life
that I have been living,
Jude: you've been wondering
that all your life true,
Trey: I'm telling you trust issue.
And so there's two things that I
want to cover here, branching off
of this, you know, I highlighted
how it is picking up the shield.
That is the start of this
journey for Steve Rogers.
I love that moment other than it
just being a really cool moment.
But when he chases down the winter
soldier and he throws that shield and
the winter soldier turns around and
catches it outside of just being a cool
way to establish this character, it is
a narrative imbued action sequence that
says, I know this is who you are trying
to be, but you are not ready for this.
And so even though the shield is the first
thing, he picks up the fact that it gets
tossed back to him, it's like, come back
to me when you're ready kind of thing.
Jude: Oh yeah.
Um, in fact, I just
take a boat real quick.
And Twitter, our friend
Ellie from Neeoshi podcast.
Speaks to my heart actually.
Um, instead of actually saying what it
was used as a gift, uh, of that moment,
Bucky catching the shield on the roof.
Um, cause it is such an iconic moment.
Um, but you're right.
It is like, yeah, come back to me
when you're ready kind of moment,
which is not something Rogers
has had to, to, to face really.
I mean, again, shred school, I guess.
Um, but beyond that he hasn't,
you know, I mean, yeah.
There's a story.
Like it wasn't a one-on-one
that was more numbers.
If that makes sense, where it
was like, oh, this is an equal.
Um, so in that it's different to
Trey: that example, you know,
when we talked about red skull
and the Atari, I mean, that is the
one note nature of Steve Rogers.
He is good.
He is strong.
He is the good guy, but what they have
done here in this moment, or at least
what I read in it is because Steve
Rogers is now questioning who, you
know, this is who the world sees me as.
Who am I?
And who do I want to be?
And that is what he's left and armed with.
You know what I was talking about,
the irony of Nick fury passing
this Baton to them of trust.
And then the next scene we get is in
the hospital scene where even Natasha is
questioning, can I trust Steve Rogers?
So not only have they narratively
taking down the infallible structure
of Steve Rogers within the audience's
perception, sort of, but also within
himself of like he's having to
trust, like if he can trust Natasha.
And I feel like I've said trust a
lot, so I'm going to stop and think.
Jude: So this movie is
about friends and interest.
It's not about that.
I've never seen a single one
of those movies, but okay.
So, and my buddy, Jonathan, when he
gets around to listen to this who
loves that and not like, he's like, oh,
he's a Christian about a masterpiece,
but like just loves it in terms of,
um, just fun and like I'm in I've.
I've never seen a single one, but in
fairness, he makes the mistake of thinking
the dark nights better than Batman begins.
Trey: we're going to move on from
here, but I just want to point out,
I think that's a pretty widely held.
I believe a lot of among a lot of people.
Jude: That's unfortunate for them
I just wanted to make sure, cause
you made it sound like he's in the
wrong for believing that I think,
uh, a lot of people would use that
as a bolster to his point, but I
can also, cause I agree with you.
I think narratively Batman begins is
probably better, but I was wondering
Jude: just because the majority thinks
something doesn't mean it's right.
Trey: I don't think it's the
discredit to his belief that you think
just saying, God, do we
have to keep this in now?
I know this is going to be fun.
Well, I think that's going to wrap it
up for the first act of this movie.
So we're going to go ahead
and move in to the second act.
Now, this one is going to take us through
the meeting that Steve Rogers has with
Alexander Pierce all the way through
the moment where Steve Nat and Sam are
arrested after the bridge fight scene.
So starting with me this time, I think
the obvious place to start here is
that meeting with Alexander Pierce.
You know, we talked about it
a bit in the first act of.
Uh, movie that Alexander Pierce
really is the embodiment of the things
that Nick fury was wrestling with.
Um, and I think what they
do that is, is commonplace.
Now, I think with praise that we give
Marvel and their villains, but at the
time, I think was a little, uh, it was
more special because it felt like it
wasn't as commonplace, but you really
get to see the ideology of Alexander
Pierce and see that even though he's
wrong, this is something that he believes
full-heartedly and it is even something.
That he doesn't see as wrong.
He truly believes that he is bringing
order, but that speech he gives about
like, you know, Nick fury is my friend
and said, think that people that
murdered him could be happy today.
And because it just makes me sick.
And then going on to talk about like,
you know, people will call you dirty
because you're willing to put your
hands in the mud and do what's right.
Like all this is, is talking the
talk like he's showing that he wants
to be the good person, but the slow
uncovering of the reality of the
intent, I think is what makes him
such a compelling antagonist here.
Jude: And again, I've mentioned it
earlier in a way fury and Pierce
are very similar in terms of that.
I, that idea of what it means
to protect others and the
things you need to do to do so.
Um, you know, and I don't know why
what's what sticks also, what sticks
out to me with Pierce is I wonder.
And this is so weird because I,
I agree with you of the backstory
that like we were getting this here.
Um, and it was such a good villain.
I think Robert Redford did
such a great job with it.
I do wonder what made him join Hydra?
You know, like, like what was that shift
that said, yes, this is, you know, I'm,
I'm all in here because clearly for me,
if Pearson fury are very similar ideology
wise, but fear is not Hydra and Pierce
is so, like, there was something that,
that triggered that conversion, so to
speak or over this edge to, to go full
on Hydra and as close friends, as I said,
they were, you didn't bring fury along.
So like he knew something
about, about fury and that
would be something really cool.
For me to see maybe to explore, I don't,
I don't know the best way to put it.
Not that I'm asking, let's go
back and have a series on peers.
Um, you know, I'm not, not saying that,
but it, but it is for as much information
as we get, um, especially you're right up
to this point in the MCU, like it was a
really well-developed villain, you know,
I'm curious, like what pushes that person?
Like what, what was the thought
process there, or, or even like
what was in the mind of the writers
and the Russo brothers, you know?
And, um, when they thought, oh, this
is the way this person would get.
Trey: You know, I, I really think
it is because, I mean, if you listen
to the way they talk about their
mission, it's like the world is on
a balance between order and chaos
and we're going to give it a push.
Like they genuinely believe that what
they're doing will bring order and
it will bring peace because they do
not like low-key believe that people
can maintain their own happiness and
their own peace that it is something
that has to be instilled to them.
And so I don't think it's something
that happens overnight, but if you
keep operating under this belief
that I have to go to these extremes
to justify the ends eventually.
You stopped being shocked
by what the extremes are.
And I think that's like, it's just, it's a
S uh, a point of no return that I B Debbie
comes indistinguishable for the, yeah.
Jude: Talking about extremism.
Two things come to mind, um, which
orders first quick clarification on
one of my thoughts and something you
said about Loki, um, and it, again, and
it ties it to this extremism thought
was, you know, wondering about Pearson
that switch to, to have that attitude
of like, we can't trust people, right.
We, we have to subdue people.
They can't have this freedom
because they can't be trusted.
You know, Loki's Loki, he's a, you
know, a trickster, but for Pierce to do.
You know, he's really elevating
himself above the rest of humanity.
And putting himself in that
position of like, I am judged.
Uh, and so that's a
really interesting place.
The like how do you get there
as a person to say, like, I
am the one who decides that.
Um, but man, when you, when you
think about the extremist view,
there's tons of examples that we can
think of that are extremist views.
Um, especially if he's thinking
in terms of military action, like.
Like, that's what he does.
Um, in, in this, in this world of
security, through mite and you know, what
are the, when you're talking, one of the
first things that came to mind in terms
of extremist was, um, you know, I talked
a lot about with one of my classes, uh,
general Curtis LeMay from world war two.
And, and it has involvement in
his shaping of the U S air force
and, and those types of things.
And he was almost pretty like maybe a
notch, less extreme than the UK guy.
I can't remember his first name, but it's
his, his, um, nickname was bomber Harris.
And, you know, for him it was total war.
Like there was no such thing as
a non-combatant, you know, like
you in some way as a civilian.
Supported the war effort.
So therefore I could bomb you.
And there were, you know, and,
and, and you have, what was it, the
firebombings of, uh, Dresden, um,
which was just horrific and LeMay later
with the fire bombings of Tokyo, um,
before we even dropped the nuclear
bombs, which were just horrific.
And when it came from that extremist
view of total war, nobody's a
non-combatant and this is what
gets results and we need results.
Um, and so it's like, we've.
So I just find that, that interesting
is it's it's there in this movie, but
like, man, we we've seen it so many
times as well throughout human history.
And, and, and again, like I
said, I, it was interesting.
I was listening to the audio commentary
today, but I had only finished
half my notes up until that point.
So after it got passed, where I
had taken notes, I stopped because
I didn't want it to influence, um,
what I was interpreting from the
movie itself on a, on a cold watch.
But the thing that I think was
present on their mind when they
were going into this movie was a
lot of real world inspirations.
They were taken from both from movies,
but also this idea that if, okay, we're
going to do a political thriller, how
can we instill some of those real world
examples into this fictitious world?
Um, so I'm, I'm glad you've found
a way to highlight that, uh, that
echoes here, what they are focusing
Well, and I remember when it came.
Um, it was super timely and the Edward
Snowden, uh, stuff that, you know,
like came out around the same time,
the things that he brought to light.
And it was just really
interesting to me because.
This was written and in filmed
and in production way before that
happened, it just happened to, you
know, to be timely in that way.
Um, you know, and, and people were
making that connection, but we're
like what the extremism, I mean,
we find that all over the place.
Trey: You know, I, I do have a question
for you because I've talked to about it
before, how this movie is, is one of my
favorites, because it will forever hold
that revelation with Bucky, for me, which
is something I don't know how I got all
the way to the end, but I think it just
demonstrates how sucked into the movie
I was and was, it was just letting it
be in front of me as I was watching it.
Were you picking up on
Alexander Pierce by this point?
Or were you still questioning
who you could trust?
And I'll set the stage by saying like,
obviously you can tell something's
up with Alexander Pierce, but I
can't help within the same act.
But think to that scene of what
that revelation is, whenever
the winter soldier is in his.
And the scene goes from like, oh, is he
in trouble to, oh, he's familiar enough
to do the joke about the milk too,
watching him cold blood murder somebody.
And I just remember thinking like, okay,
I know this is not a good character,
but the extent to which he goes, I
remember just being a shock to me.
And I I'm wondering if that's just
exclusive to me letting the movie
be or what another perception
of all of this character was.
Jude: trying to remember
back when I first watched it.
I don't think.
Like I think it was suspicious,
but I don't think I was
convinced until that scene.
You know, now getting Robert
Redford was a huge kit.
I remember that.
And, and, and that was a big kit and,
you know, and he had played spy thriller
roles before, um, and other movies.
Um, and so, so in, in that way, that,
that was kind of a nice, um, thing,
thing to see, and maybe, maybe a
tip off, but no, I, I wasn't fully
sure until he, until he shot Renata.
I mean, it's in a movie that we're
supposed to question everything it is.
And then maybe this is
the benefit of hindsight.
That they can make a character like Pierce
with some pretty extreme values, still be
on that cusp of, of where he is falling,
uh, within the role of this movie.
So it feels like we're getting pretty
close to the infamous elevator scene.
Uh, but I do want to take some time here
to step back and set up a character we
really haven't spoken about at all yet.
And that is rum lo uh, rum low is a
fascinating character to me because
at the beginning of the movie,
you see that there is this working
friendship between Steve and rum.
Lo you have that playful banter
at the beginning where rum
lo has shot the, uh, pirate.
And Steve is like, Hey, thanks.
And he's like, yeah, you've
seen pretty helpless without me.
The way that we've watched the falling
out between these two, uh, and, and
especially leading into the meeting
with Pierce in the aggressiveness,
in which he's like, Hey, they,
they want you in for questioning.
And he's like, okay.
He was like, they want you now.
And Steve's like, all right, you,
the slow grow of tension between
them too is such a fantastic buildup
to this moment where he ultimately
betrays him here in the elevator.
Um, and I got one joke before I throw
it to you, you know, it's, I wonder
how much Hydra would still be secret
if they were so much better at being
subtle, because all those nervous
men getting into that elevator was so
funny to me and different hindsights
now that we know how that plays out
Jude: well, I'm imagining
not rum low, right?
Cause low is full on hydro, right?
Like he he's bought in.
I imagine some of those other guys are
just like, yeah, whatever the pay is.
You know, I have the, have the skill set.
Uh, cause I just got back, you know,
finished my, finished my tour and this
I'm getting recruited here and I need
a job and now you want me to do what?
Like, I'm just imagining like, like
one of those other guys who was
like, yeah, we need you to like
trap captain America in an elevator.
And it's like, what do you want me
to get in the elevator with cap?
Like, I can't, I can't get away.
Oh, don't worry.
We're gonna, we're going to send a bunch
of other guys with you cause I, okay.
Trey: Well, to go in further in
the commentary track, the writers
and directors specifically said
that that the inspiration for
that scene is what would it like?
What would it be like to send 10, highly
trained, to been in a cage with a gorilla?
That is the, what
they're trying to convey.
I guess they nailed it because
I too would be nervous.
But man, Rumble's poker face is terrible
where he's like, Hey, uh, do you
want me to go send out the TAC team?
And then, uh, Steve's like,
no, let's, let's wait to hear
back from forensics burgers.
He's like, oh, okay.
That makes sense.
Jude: It was, it is a fantastic scene.
Um, I think man, the only thing that's
ever come that close to doing it that well
was teen Pelton and community, I guess,
but no, like it was, it was, it was great.
Like, and I think what was so great
about it is, is how believable.
Um, cause cause you had the, so many
people in there, like if he just
went through him and it was no big
deal, but they have to fight off the
magnets to have the struggle, to be
1.1 handed like it, they did such
a good job of making it believable.
It makes sense.
Why again, when we put out the question
on social media, uh, Sean from caption
life and Ben dot Maddie, both referred
to this scene as one of the first
memorable scenes, whenever you think
about winter soldier and I mean it's with
good cause um, you know, I personally
coming from the angle that I always
come from with captain America, to me,
the thing that makes it so special is.
Even though Steve Rogers has been
pushed to this perspective, in that he
doesn't know who he can trust anymore.
Uh, he doesn't know what he stands for,
but in that elevator scene, as he's
clearly deduced that these people are
here to, to capture him, he politely
asks them, does anybody want to get
off that's grace that he's extending
before, like that chance to do the
right thing before it breaks loose is
such a pivotal captain America moment.
Jude: I love it.
It's, it's such a good way to
break the tension too, because
like, you know, something's going
down, Rumbo has a terrible poker
face, CAPP knows something's going
down and you're just waiting.
It's like, okay, what's going to happen.
What's what's it going to be like,
what's, what's the trigger, you know?
And, and calf just like,
okay, we're doing this.
And, you know, um, in fact, And changed
your mind captain, the aggressor, if
he wouldn't have asked that they would
just, and they felt scared because like,
they're all dude, we're in the elevator,
we're going down to forensics and then
cap all of a sudden, out of nowhere, it
was like, Hey, anybody want to get off?
And you're like, oh my gosh,
he's going to go off on us.
So let's get them first.
I think cap was the bad guy in the scene.
Trey: Yeah, because before that moment,
everybody's like, no, you move first.
That cap is essentially the person
that let the arrow fly at the battle.
By the end of this, are we
just going to realize that
captain America is the villain?
Don't you dare don't you dare.
Oh, well you know what again?
And I'll go ahead and say this
now I'll have more to explain.
As we get into later acts.
But to me, I think whenever captain
America stories are working at their
highest potential, it is when they are
treating the shield as its own character.
And so I talked about that in the
apartment scene where, you know,
that's him picking it up, Bucky
stops it and throws it back to him.
You're not ready for this.
I like that.
The shield doesn't get to
get used here that much.
It is kind of quickly taken away from him.
He takes the, the elevator out and
then that he has that cool moment where
he kicks it back up to his arm and
the escape continues and he uses it.
Jude: Cut the cord to make the, to
make the lift the elevator fall down.
Trey: Yeah, he does that.
And then he uses it the way to
break his fall when he falls.
But the moment I'm hanging up particular
is like, after he takes out that Quinjet
the way that he comes, crashing down and
slams into the ground and does that cool,
you know, poser move where he kind of
looks off to the side, pass the camera.
It just feels like such a great
declaration of like this shield is.
Like I have reclaimed this from
the capital S shield and I'm going
to use it for what it is that I
think is the moral thing to do.
Um, and so I don't know.
It just, it felt like a moving
story piece there within the actual
story that they're telling you.
Jude: No, I think you're spot on.
Um, well I know you're spot
on because again, I can keep
going back to the commentary.
Please listen to the commentary
when you're done with our pod,
go check out the commentary.
But when they said that, that,
that I, if I remember right, they
said they wanted to, to really
emphasize in the use of the shield.
And I don't remember.
In captain America first Avenger.
Oh, Uh, the first Avengers, film
him using the shield other than
just like throwing it, you know,
and here they got really creative.
Like you said that with not just using
the apartment, but the ways in which
he was able to utilize the shield.
Um, and this is the first place
where we see it, and that was an
intentional choice and something that
the writers and directors wanted to do.
And again, the it's a whole
suspension of disbelief, but, um,
that, that they're asking right.
It wasn't difficult to do
because they did so well.
Trey: You know, I want to circle
back to what you were saying
about how you mentioned that
elevator fight feels believable.
The thing that I kept finding myself,
coming in conflict was stepping
back and thinking, okay, this is
a little UN not even realistic.
It's asking you to, to look away a bit,
but because we are centered in a superhero
world, this fantastical nature of 10
guys going against one, or, uh, Nick
fury going through this car chase and,
and doing all these destructions, like
it is so over the top, but in comparison
to some of the other things we've seen
the MCU do, it does feel more grounded.
And so it's, it's, it's an interesting
balance that they're finding and
doing some over the top stuff, but
in a way that feels, uh, Human.
Jude: Well, and you see it again.
It's, it's the Russo brothers choice in,
in directing and filmmaking to go to that
handheld tight closeups for the action.
And we're doing of our soldiers.
I don't, I don't want to get too
far down the show, but like for
me, there was a distinct difference
when you're watching civil war.
Where I feel like you can watch it.
And there's a point where it's like,
why'd you change what they're doing?
Uh, meaning you still have that kind
of that handheld close action, but then
here, then all of a sudden it changes and
you kind of get that standard wide shot.
You can see everything
and watch them fight.
Um, and, and I don't know why they made
that, that intentional change of choice.
I haven't listened to that
commentary yet actually.
Uh, but I'm sure it's just as good.
Um, no, I actually have
listened to that one.
It's just been years.
Um, cause I was like, first thing
I did when I got the DVD, but I
think that's part of what makes it.
That feel real and believable
cause we're up close.
I can't speak too much because a lot
of times when it comes to the actual
style of filmmaking, that's a, that's
an area of weakness for me and why
I love doing this because of the way
you pointed out, but I can't speak to
civil war, but, uh, what it does here,
it has that frenetic energy to it.
And, uh, and it's something we've looked
at before and something that I've talked
about, why I was so excited about is
that physical hand-to-hand nature, uh,
that we don't get enough of in the MCU.
Um, and, and then we've had some
pretty good examples of it here within
this movie that we've covered so far,
but really, and that elevator scene
feels like just the next level of
where we started on that boat scene.
So the next place we go to after
Steve has escaped from shield and
has now been deemed a fugitive on
the run, uh, is he goes to retrieve
the USB that Nick fury entrusted
to him that he hid in the hospital.
And lo and behold, Natasha is
the one who got to it before him.
What did you think of this scene
of them together as they're
poking at who it is they can trust
Jude: versus it is actually, I
think this scene is a standout
of the chemistry between Chris
Evans and Scarlett Johannson.
This scene actually now brings me
slight disappointment feelings.
Um, but it is what we talked
about earlier that learning how to
trust each other and be friends.
So to speak, um, rather than
just, Hey, we work together.
And so, yeah, so like th this scene
is, um, you know, like that, those
are the things that kind of mind,
and honestly, again, hindsight or
watching it now that disappointment is.
You know, she describes how
winter soldier shot her.
And that was something I was
hoping to see, like in a flashback
in the black widow movie.
And so, and so now seeing it here,
that that honestly was the first
thing that came to mind was like, oh,
Trey: and you know, it's they even talk
about it on the commentary track, where
they wanted to, like, they had this more
elaborate history that they had together
that they just didn't get to delve into.
Um, so yeah, I can see it being a
bit of a shame that we never got
to it, which speaks to the horrible
discredit the MCU has done to Natasha
and not giving more for stories.
Jude: uh, yeah, because, because, because
when you don't give that ju you know,
just a quick thought when you don't give
that, like, it's now more winter soldier
story than hers, you know, And it's again,
it's like, well, we need that story to
serve a purpose of building up winter
soldier, not adding depth to Natasha.
Trey: You know, you did frame this as,
this is the beginning of them moving from
being friends, because we worked together.
We are we're friends because of
who we are and what we like about
the things that we stand for.
Um, you know, I, I like how it
starts with this common goal of they
together need to solve your murder.
And the thing that I think stood out
to me that I found just such a fun
irony, I guess, in the narrative,
is that the thing that gets Steve to
trust Natasha is Natasha admitting that
she only pretends to know everything.
And the thing that's, that's interesting
to me about that is part of who she is
part of her skillset is that deception.
And so the fact that in that moment
of vulnerability, Steve is able
to trust her in, in her revealing.
She doesn't really know,
you know, 10 steps ahead.
I thought that was just a.
Beautiful exchange between
them that speaks to the
chemistry that the actors had.
Well, you know what, uh, we have
decided that this is going to be the
first part of what is now a two-part
discussion of the winter soldier.
Definitely because of it being one of my
favorite movies, I've had a lot to say,
Jude, I know you've had a lot to say,
Jude: so rather than.
You texted me and you were like, I'm two
minutes in and have six pages of notes.
Trey: I subsequently texted Tara later
that night and I said, we're recording
our winter soldier review tomorrow.
And I have to let you know, I'm 41 minutes
into the movie and I have 18 pages of
notes to which he said, I'm down for a
three plus hour episode of winter soldier,
or you have to post her notes online.
And all of that to say, I have
finished my notes at three, or
I'll say this
Jude: because those notes are
going to have to end up somewhere.
Trey: I, I might share them somewhere.
Jude: are interested in socials
discord somewhere, let us know.
Trey: I tell you what if people
want to see my notes tweet at us
or Instagram at MC you need to
know, uh, enough people ask all.
But I'll, I'll leave at this cause
this is, uh, you know, this movie
is very important to me and because
of shonky, I've been doing a lot of
really reevaluating of my top five.
And I've even talked with you
like these, these movies are super
close to me in a way that goes
beyond being just Marvel movies.
Um, the experience of doing a
watch for podcast prep, I think
reinvigorated watching in a
way that I haven't felt before.
And I'll be honest because
I've talked about it.
I've cried easy when it comes
to movies, it doesn't even
have to be like a sad moment.
Like if a movie is just really,
really good, I start crying.
Don't know why just do it
Jude: because you should,
because you're invested and
the creators did their job too.
They were to make you feel something.
Trey: And I did that in this,
and I haven't felt that in a long
time watching winter soldier,
because I have watched it a lot.
And so getting to do
this made me so happy.
And I think that is
what led to 30 pages of
That is amazing.
That is a face.
And I knew going in, like, I'm going to
have to sit back and just let Trey go.
Like, like I knew, so, yeah.
Trey: yeah, so rather than trying to
rush through to get this into a one
part, uh, we are going to go ahead and
do this as a two-part, uh, coverage.
So we'll put a pause on it here.
Jude, I'm going to turn
to you before we go.
If somebody is listening to this and
they've decided, you know what, I'm going
to watch winter soldier this weekend,
what is something you think they need
to zone in on as they go through the
parts that we haven't covered yet?
Jude: The first thing that comes to
mind from my notes is going to be.
And I didn't pick up on it before.
I I'm sure somebody else
has picked up on it.
There's some interesting, like
philosophical questions that came to mind
with the existence of our aren't in Zola.
And seeing where we're at culturally
now with technology, um, like, you know,
earlier we just joked about like cat
being the bad guy kind of, kind of thing,
but there is an irony of like winter.
You can't track us like that.
And like, Hey, I'm sitting in my
living room doing this and tagging
where I'm at and like freely
giving away the information, uh,
that, all this personal stuff.
And so there's an irony to me there.
Um, and so thinking about those things,
um, as what is trying to accomplish and
what, what captain America's argument
against hydrogens, especially in that,
in kind of scene speech he gives.
Yeah, that's good.
I like that a lot.
You anything to zone in on?
Nah, just, just
Trey: enjoy it.
Just shut up and cry.
Jude: Bring the tissues,
the tissues ready?
No salt or butter.
Cause you get that in the eyes.
It's going to suck.
You know, if I had to sum it up,
I would do this, you know, so much
of the discussion that I've had is
talking about the ways they have
found making Steve Rogers interesting
and changing internally, and
really having a question who he is.
The thing that I think the second
half of the movie does really well
is not only does it get Steve to
a point of resolve of who he is.
It continues that track of captain
America inspiring the best out of others.
And there are so many instances
in which that happens.
But the thing that I want to keep in
mind is how this is just as much black
widow story as it is captain Americas,
and the way that plays out within
the second half of the film, I think
is really important to look in on.
So, uh, there's a lot of characters where
this takes place, but Natasha and Steve in
particular are two ends of a spectrum of
a modern world that I think is that stands
out to me the more and more that I watch
I'm going to go rewatch it this
weekend and focus in on that.
Trey: Well, fantastic.
Well, you know, what, if that's
you as well, you can always let
us know at MC we need to know
both on Twitter and Instagram.
Uh, we've been doing a lot of
work to put up extra content.
Uh, we've been doing new things
such as kind of doing quizzes for
the movies that we're recovering.
I think that's something
we're going to try and do.
So if, for example, we do civil war next.
If you're on our social media, we're going
to have some posts that are, have fun.
Trivia is fill in the quotes
and things of that nature.
So if you want to get in on the fun, make
sure that you're following us at MC you
need to know on Twitter and Instagram.
Jude: And of course, scroll
down to the bottom of the show
notes, click on the discord.
Let us know if you want
to see Trey's notes.
Uh, let us know.
Cat dog person was fury crazy.
Um, and a couple of others.
Fun things in there, um, that all of
us love to talk about risks, other
movies, games, all kinds of stuff.
Make sure when you get there to
click on the role, assign, click
on the emojis so you can get
access to all the spoiler channels.
And of course, to really help us
out, leave a rating review on apple
podcast and Spotify or whatever
place you're listening to podcast.
It accepts those things.
And of course, share with your friends.
We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for
the use of our theme song, which is his
rendition of the Avengers thinking he can
find more of his work on a SoundCloud,
which is linked in the show notes as well.
Well, that's going to do it.
Thank you so much for listening and Jude.
Thank you so much for doing this.
Thank you, Trey.
We'll see you all next week.
That's the first half.
For the second part?
Jude: That might be our in tech.
Trey: We don't want to rush this.
So we're going to go
ahead and call it here.
Jumps right into.
that was fun.
As always, share with a friend
and shout out Nick Sandy