Trey: Hello, and welcome back to another
episode of MCU Need to Know, a podcast

dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic
Universe and everything you need to know.

I'm Trey!

Jude: I'm Jude, and in this
episode, we are going to pick up

where we left off with our part
two of captain America, the winter

soldier, you know, it was super fun.

And I'm glad to jump back into this.

I think where we left off train,
if I'm right, was Steve Rogers

and Natasha was discussing.

The w her experience of the winter
soldier being shot and recovering

the, this movie's MacGuffin goober.

Um, that was the little
USB device that that's.

Okay.

Let's be honest.

How clever was that to hide
it behind a stick of gum?

Trey: Wow.

That was going to be my follow-up.

I love Steve Rogers.

He's a fantastic hero.

A personal favorite, terrible at
hiding things that was so bad,

Jude: right?

Like there's an element sometimes.

Like you do hide stuff in plain
sight because our last place.

But if somebody is going to go buy a
pack of gum, that's got a stick out.

Trey: Oh, 100%.

I just love the idea.

Like, because, and again, I don't
want to get too bogged down on it

because movies are all sometimes about
to spend suspending your disbelief.

But the idea of Steve Rogers opening
up the vending machine and looking both

ways, making sure nobody sees him and then
like clumsily, trying to put that stick

behind all those gum and then close it
before anybody sees is a really funny to

Jude: me.

No, th th no, the real question is
how much does he think that was worth?

Right.

Cause you put in money and you do the
little thing and you get your packet of

Bubblicious there and to get that thing
to spin, to move the next one forward.

Right.

And so let's just say
it's a dollar a pack.

How many slots back was it?

Was

Trey: that off the top of

Jude: my head?

I think it was four.

So, so $4 is what it was.

To Steve for shield

Trey: secrets.

Well, for Steve, it seems to
run on some type of electricity.

So,

Jude: so yeah, like I just, you
know, just cause I'm just imagining

like it, like my teenage self.

I see that I'm curious and I'm
probably buying it until I get it.

Trey: I love the idea of somebody
who's tuning in to this episode.

The first time it's like, man,
these guys really hate winters.

Jude: I know right now, Teresa, at
that stage though, this is trays.

Um, well, I mean, let's be honest,
Kevin fight you super-fan this was,

you know, his love letter to Trey,
uh, captain America, winter soldier.

Uh, no.

And I do want to say this.

It was interesting.

I remember, um, you know, we, we
did start with the first pond of.

Uh, talking about our anxiety of
covering this and how nervous we were.

Um, and I think having a conversation
with Daniel, uh, I believe he, he

said even he was glad that we actually
brought that up upfront, you know?

Um, but yeah, it's, it is Trey's
favorite movie and we're on page 15

of his 30 notes, so close page 18.

And so, but this is where we are for us
to structure wise, act to this scene.

And then we will finish up our
thoughts on act to move into act

three, um, and then kind of wrap up.

Uh, so yeah, so Trey picking up
here, where do you want to start?

Trey: I think the place that I want to
start is where I left the call to action.

And last week's episode where we say.

Where we basically put down what
we wanted people to zone in on.

If they went and watched the
winter soldier after listening to

the first half of our commentary.

And the thing that I said is to pay
attention to how much this movie is just

as much Natasha's as it is Steve Rogers.

And so I think starting here picking
up where we are in the mall, where

they have gotten their USB, they're
using it in the apple store and they

now have to evade the Hydra agents.

It is such a wonderful flip that.

If Natasha and Steve are opposite
ends of a spectrum in a modern

world, then Natasha is someone that
has completely adapted to this.

She knows how to play the game
if you want to put it that way.

So, you know, something they mentioned
in the, the director's commentary is how

important it was to take these established
heroes and have them playing from their

back foot, which I think is the only
believable way to sell like, oh, Hydra

really does have the upper hand here.

So the fact that Steve Rogers is kind
of lost and it is up to Natasha to

teach him how to navigate this world,
I think is such an interesting flip.

And it demonstrates a skillset
that has only been talked about

with Natasha, but we get to really
see it in full display here.

Jude: Yeah.

Well, you know what comes to mind?

You know, that Thor, Ragnarok,
infinity Warren in game.

If you trace Hulk and banner, that
was supposed to be like its own arc

and whether or not you feel like
that actually happened with how that

character was treated an end game.

I don't know.

Um, you, the listener, the Royal you,
you know, and Trey, uh, but actually

as you bring that up about being just
as much Natasha's movie and getting to

see that you kind of get that out of
this, and even looking ahead to civil

war, what the, you know, you kind of
do get a arc here between those two

together in, in, you know, I, I'm not
saying at all that like, oh, we didn't

need her movie because we had an arc.

If you put all these movies
together, that's dumb.

I highly glad we got
the black widow movie.

Um, I think it's
documented on our Twitter.

I put that as the best movie
are my favorite or best movie

of 2021, but I do like that.

There you do get that feeling of as
much as it's captain America's movie.

There is an arc, you know, uh, which is
weird because like, thinking back to where

we ended in that one scene, I was also,
you know, I was the one that said it was

like, oh, I would have loved to have seen
that moment where winter soldier shot her.

And that moment is about building up
winter soldiers, mystique, maybe, uh, and,

and really doesn't flesh out Natasha as
much because we don't see it later, but

you do get to see her shift of spy and
what that was an Avengers we see are here.

And what that role is, the relationship
that develops the Steve Rogers, how that

relationship gets complicated and civil
war, because I'm friends with Steve

Rogers, I'm checking in with Steve,
but ideologically agree with Tony.

And then I don't.

And so you actually get a nice
little storyline for Natasha.

Through those two movies.

Trey: Yeah.

And, and even within this
movie itself, like, think about

where we are at this point.

We have just lost Nick fury.

Uh, we talked so much about how,
even though he technically got

away, he lost everything in that
scene with the winter soldier.

So if, again, if everything is about
putting these heroes on their back foot,

I love that line when she's has the USB in
the Mac book and she's going through it.

And she's like, yeah, the person
who encrypted this drive is

slightly smarter than me slightly.

Like, I like that, that feeling
of like, oh, this is the start

of our path towards good.

Like we were on our way.

And they do such a great job of
establishing here, especially

with the way, like, I mean, it
was just the tension of the scene

of like Steve Rogers is nervous.

When does Steve Rogers get that nervous
where he's constantly looking over your

shoulder and Natasha plays it cool.

While you have all the different
hydrate agents coming in from the top

of the escalator to different floors.

It's just it's so,

Jude: yeah.

Well, in it again, like you said, of
the tactics, uh, you know, Rogers, okay.

Standard this, you know, I don't
remember the full line, but like

talking about like the formation, right?

The standard two in the front
back, this is what we can do.

And she's like, just now
relax, we're going to do this.

Um, you know, and it is, it's this
interesting example of the, the different

sets of training, the different sets
of reaction, you know, to that, to

the, that situation and the stress.

Yeah, it's I, I liked having the contrast

Trey: there and the way it leads into
that moment when they're escaping in the

truck, because after we see that, okay,
Natasha's kind of got the lead here.

They have a very vulnerable conversation
in, and again, in that idea of they're,

they're two sides of a spectrum.

You know, Natasha has adapted to
this world, but in a way that leaves

it so that she never gets to show a
true side of herself because she is

always constantly changing to what
it is that she needs to stay safe.

Whereas Roger's, you know,
his, I mean, he is honesty.

That is what he wants to live.

That is his ideal world.

And what he expects of others is
to constantly be there on itself.

So it puts us in a situation where like,
okay, who is the quote unquote, right.

One.

But I think it is getting us to
this point where received there's

a happy medium between them.

And I think there is a way for Natasha
to be a little bit more true to herself

without sacrificing the ways that she's
adapted in the skill sheets has picked

up just as much as there is a way for
Steve Rogers to not be that rigid.

Always have to be honest and
fit into this more modern world.

Well, and

Jude: you have that extra
to two things come to mind.

So you have the interaction
in the truck, right?

I love the callback to the old
captain America movie with the whole,

you know, when the captain America
learned to steal a truck, uh, you

know, cause they had kept Hotwire
truck and the, in the older version.

Uh, and when, I mean older version,
like was a seventies, eighties, the one

Trey: with the motorcycle helmet.

Yes.

Jude: Uh, I never saw that.

Yeah, neither did I.

So, um, I vaguely remember
the whole look on television.

Uh, but in that scene, it's interesting
because Rogers is forcing Natasha

to be Natasha put another way.

It's like, ah, I can be whoever you
want me to be like, that's the fun

you, you know, or, or I, how I can
protect myself from getting hurt.

And he's like forcing her into this, this
authenticity, and she's forcing him into

this like tape relax God kind of thing.

Um, so I really liked that scene.

Now, the question I have, and, and
again, I talked about this, it's

really weird because I, I, I do love
this movie and, and listening back

to last week's pod, I was like, okay,
am I coming across as, too negative?

Uh, I don't want to come across as, too
negative because it's such a good movie.

People love this movie.

And so that's why I keep framing it of
like, where's the evolution of my thought.

And thinking about what are the things
that stood out and wondering why did it

stand at this time versus last time, the
first watch when they did that scene of.

No kiss me public displays
make, make people uncomfortable

is like, yes, it does.

And I wonder to what
extent that was necessary.

You know what I mean?

Like in writing and making that choice,
because that was like a gateway to,

Hey, I want to ask you this question.

Was that the first time was it that bad?

No.

And so you get into that really
good conversation, right?

That was meaningful and good for
those characters, but there was an

element of like, they're not dating.

We know they're not dating because.

But outside of Tony and pepper,
maybe the only on string, Chris,

we'd seen Jane Foster and Thor
off the tee Gomorrah that up to

Trey: that point, Guardian's
galaxy would have been after that.

Jude: Yeah.

You know, like it, like, it made me
wonder for some reason watching it this

time, you know, that popped into my head.

I was like, okay.

Was that necessary?

Did that help push the story along?

Or was it just kind of.

We have these two characters.

And so let's do that, you know, and
I don't know why this time watching

it, that kind of popped in my head.

Uh, maybe, maybe, maybe because of
the pod, maybe because I put myself

in such a position of thinking
about the intentionality of choices

they make in the writing room, you

Trey: know?

Yeah.

Well, we've talked about it plenty of
times before where the way we view things

for the podcast is not the way we view
things when we view it for ourselves.

And we sometimes find ourselves into
that position where we start to be like,

man, are we just being overly critical?

But I think as long as we keep a healthy
lens of like trying to pick out what

it is that it's sticking out to us, I
think it's, you know, it's hopefully

not too negative from the audience's
perspective, but that's never our

intention, but to circle back to.

The question at hand within the movie,
you know, I listen again, listening to

the director's commentary, they brought
it up in that they debated that for so

long and they were very cognizant of
like, they needed to have meaning in it.

Otherwise it's just like, oh, you're
doing it for romantic tension sake.

And I'm cleaning it up a
little bit for the podcast.

And so I get that they had the
right intentions, but they end

on a plus of kiss is always fun.

And it's like one step forward and two
steps back and the intentionality of it.

Right.

I think it kind of works because again,
it is demonstrating that like, I mean,

that is part of Natasha skillset, right?

The, I don't think social engineering
is the right term for it, but it's

kind of that, that feeling of like,
okay, these, this is how people work.

This is how we're going to make them
uncomfortable so that we can stay hidden.

Um, but I can understand why it's
something that stands out to you as

Jude: well.

Like skillset wise, that's
a hundred percent, I think,

believable in this situation.

This is what you do, cause we're
going to play into, like you

said, people's uncomfortability.

Right?

And so like, it wasn't that
far of a stretch to say, oh,

this was being forced into it.

Um, I just find it interesting of like my,
what, the things that pop up in my head.

Um, You know, in terms of now versus then.

So yeah.

Trey: You know, moving along after
that conversation that they have in the

truck, uh, we, you know, we detailed the
vulnerability that it puts them in and

you, you really get, uh, an illustration
of where these two characters are at

within this theme of trust and friendship
that the movie is, is wrestling with man.

When they get to camp Lehigh, it is
just, it is so narratively rich that

he has to go back to the place that
it all started for captain America.

Like if the whole idea is divorcing Steve
Rogers from just the mantle to really

be able to come back to it and wield it
in a way that feels more meaningful to

him going back to that start and that
being the place where we learn, Hey,

shield, isn't what we thought it was.

It is actually Hydra that has been
growing under secret for so long.

It just it's, it's a great
turning point for this film.

And it works in tandem.

If you go back to that scene where he's
consulting with Peggy, and he's talking

about like, I don't know who I am anymore.

I don't know what it is that I stood for.

And she's like, oh, you're being dramatic.

Sometimes the only thing
we can do is start over.

And it's just, it's an echo of
that conversation and putting it to

practice in here and the fact that
they literally have to delve deeper.

What better demonstration of the
sororities story circle than getting

to the bottom of this secret vase?

Jude: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, well, two things a and the whole
start over, well, let's go back and

destroyed this base and oh, by the way,
we're going to take out all the shield.

Right.

We're really going down to base
a to base level start over.

So yeah, like there, so you mentioned
that the story circle, would you

say this is the belly of the beast?

Trey: I would think so.

Yeah, because you, I mean, if, if you
start from a place, a comfortable.

Did you want something and
then you go out and find it.

You find it, but it's not
what you're looking for.

He found what it is that he was looking
for, the people, the bliss behind

all of this, but finding out what
it was, shield is the act that will

propel us through the return journey.

Having changed.

At least that is my, my read of the
story circle to this particular moment.

Yeah.

Jude: Yeah.

Right.

That's cause like I'm trying to
think it was like a, is it that,

is it when the elevator scene,
like, and here's what I say.

The other says you need
something, a little fury died.

You don't have fury.

You don't know who to trust.

You're not sure about Natasha,
like, is that the moment?

Um, but I think you're right.

I think this is where it's at,

Trey: you know, and I don't
think I've ever really.

Articulated how much I
love that it is Hydra.

That is the culprit, because if,
again, everything is operating in this

paranoia and this idea of truth and
security and you know, what are you

willing to give up for protection?

The idea that it is Hydra that is
coming back to be responsible for this

really illustrates the horrors of how
hard it is to stop an ideology and that

some up in Hydra with the cutoff one
head and two more shell tickets place.

The fact that Steve now has to
wrestle with, I gave my life to this.

I thought I stopped this.

And it is back like what more
than to drive our character

further into that paranoia than to
realize what he gave his life for.

Actually didn't stop it.

Jude: Yeah.

Speaking of ideology, like the,
the whole, you know, and when we

talked about this a little bit with
fury, and I think it was Nick Sandy

that said we were kind of harsh.

Um, but I mentioned, you know, uh,
Fury's ideology, isn't much different

from pierces, which is Hydra and.

You know, and there's this
interesting commentary there of,

yeah, this is still here, right?

Like I've sacrificed
and this ideology lives.

And that, that is the thing
about ideologies, right?

Like, like those are really, really,
if you find a particular ideology

that is worth dying for right.

Sacrificing yourself for the idea
that like the, the ideology goes away.

Cause it's, it's not a person.

Um, there's just false.

Like, you know, it's, it's, it's, you
know, it makes sense that it's going

to creep back up and in some way,
and to have now that manifestation

in shield, you know, and I mean,
you carry it forward, right?

Like that was the reason why he did.

Want to sign their Cobia cords.

I've seen this happen twice

actually of, you know, and,
and so, so yeah, I, I do

find that really fascinating.

And what would psychologically,
what that might've meant for him.

And again, timing you can't explore that.

But to say, yeah, like I, you know, not
only it was self sacrifice, like crap, I

had to come back, you know, to find this
out and miss out on however many years.

And I'm now 90, you know, and we're
still fighting the same things.

I mean, what

Trey: a heartbreak to come
back and have to wrestle with.

I don't know who I am in this
new world and then learn even

who I was in the old world.

Didn't matter.

Like, this is a hard

Jude: blow.

Yeah.

A really hard blow.

I mean, he handled it.

Well, of course he did.

He's captain America.

Right?

So like, like in that sense, I
don't want to seem like, oh, am I

making it too big a deal about it?

You know?

But, but I, and I think,
I don't think I am.

I don't think we are because that's,
you know, I think the Russo brothers

are trying to, to, to trade in these
big ideas, you know, and they'll

play in that space, you know?

And, and you're right.

This, this ideology that just.

For me, I don't see much
different, you know?

Um, and so let me put it this way.

The, the line from Zola was hydro was
found on the belief that humanity could

not be trusted with its own freedom.

Okay.

Hydro learned that humanity needed
to surrender its freedom willingly.

My next out is he's not wrong.

Like that's like, he's right.

You know what I mean?

It's I mean, when you think about,
and that was my call to action, it's

like, okay, when you watch this thing
about some philosophical things that

came up, you know, and think about what
project insight is going to do that

if you watch a documentary like that.

Well, the two that come to mind, the
social dilemma and terms and conditions

may apply, you know, what are all those
little fine print things that none of us.

Can we just sign away, um, for
convenience, you know, and, and

what is the, the data being used for
it being sold for, you know, and I

mean, the number of times where I
go home to, you know, the few times

that we get to be together, right.

Next thing, you know, like my Facebook
ads, if I'm looking on Facebook or

whatever is going to be local to back
home where I grew up and visiting you.

And then it takes a couple of times for my
phone GPS, tracker locator to re orient,

and now I'm getting local stuff again.

Uh, actually a guy I work with goes
overseas a lot over the summer and,

you know, he comes back for school
and he's like, I'm still getting these

ads for, you know, stuff from Europe.

And we willingly do that, you know?

And, and so in that sense, I find it
fascinating that ideologically, like

hydro evolved to the point where.

The right.

Like we need to willingly give it over.

And I mean, their big misstep
was that they were going to

kill everybody, you know?

Trey: Yeah.

I'm gonna respond to that, but I want to
pivot to a scene that's still within act

two, but I think it's a little bit more
relevant to what we're talking about.

And that is after they have
captured Jasper well, and he

is laying out the exposition of
what it is Hydrus plan truly is.

And to circle back to what you
were talking about, as far as

the algorithm goes and those
documentaries that you were mentioning.

At least from my understanding
of how algorithms work, because

everybody's always like, oh,
our phones are listening to us.

That's how they know to
service this ad or that ad.

But the more horrifying thing
is they don't need to listen.

Like they can base off GPS,
the proximity of other phones

that you're connected with.

It makes these educated guesses
based on the behaviors that you

have inputted into the device.

And that is not any different
than what Jasper Sitwell says is

the plan with project insight.

It was a book that they were
reading to target people that

they perceived as threats.

And if we're on that limb of power,
thoughts have changed upon just when

we watch this, it is kind of even more
horrifying to me that I think there is a

broader understanding of how this works,
but I don't think people have the same

fear that is depicted in this scene in
2014 that we thought it would have had.

Jude: Not at all because we have
willingly gave it up well, and that's,

that's why I say the, the, the big
mistake hydro was, was like, oh,

we're just going to go, you know, put
these guns in the air and shoot you.

It was like, no, no.

Like the, the amount of information you
have, you know, when you think about the

ability to misinform and cater, what gets
in front of people's faces and those types

of things like, and you know what, it
wouldn't surprise me if the Russo brothers

and the writers were aware of this,
but, you know, you need your big action

sequence and you're not going to be like,
oh man, they're going to manipulate us.

I will blow up their building.

You know, like, no, that doesn't work.

No you're going to, you know what I mean?

Uh, so I wonder how much actually,
they were aware of this in terms of.

In the writing.

Cause that's, it's scary.

It's very scary.

You've convinced me.

This was going to be my last episode.

I'm going to go off the grill yesterday.

Well, it needs to be done by yesterday.

It might take me, you know, 24 times.

However many days they get to the
end of the school year, that many

hours, if I'm a Nick fury, it, I got
to subtract at least half that time.

Cause that's a reasonable thing to do.

Trey: And you questioned why Nick
Sandy thought we were being harsh.

And for the record, who
does, he don't know?

Nick Sandy texted in just telling me
like man y'all to her and the treads.

Listen, I didn't realize it was
going to be two parts of the time.

So I promise I'm going to do my
best to repair the image that I have

left after the last week's episode.

Yes.

Yes.

But you know, I, you, you brought up.

What was on the director's mind again, not
to keep beating this drum, but it's one

of the first times I was listened to the
director's commentary for a movie that is

something that they were talking about.

That even though it is a superhero
film and you can only go so far,

it was something that they were
keeping in mind because that's how

they wanted to differentiate it.

They wanted to imbue these
real world ideas that they

had into this superhero film.

And, you know, I've
talked about it before.

That's the thing that I love about.

Uh, comic book movies is that
it is dealing in extremes.

Uh, although the scary part is how less
and less, it seems like it's becoming

extreme, but for the most part, they are
dealing in taking things to the absolute,

maximum potential of what that fear is.

So that's, what's, that's
the superhero language.

Um, but circling back to the moment and
captain Lehigh, where they're discussing

with Zola, one of the things that, that
commentary ended up informing me about

that scene in a way that I haven't
thought about it before is so often

throughout, even past the MCU, but
throughout all captain America stories,

he is brought back to comment at the
times at hand, and this was their chance

to really have captain America make a
stance of where we were heading with

social media and these algorithms and
the security that we are striving for in.

In and what we're giving
up to get to that point.

So this was their, their
way of dealing with that.

And what makes Zola so brilliant in that
scene is how he is able to dump all of

that information onto us, because it's a
huge amount of information that they're

giving to us in a moment, but dump it in
a way that doesn't break the realism of

the film, because we were playing by the.

Uh, the, what we've already bought
into in the superhero world.

Like it's not that big of a stretch to
have somebody implant their mind into a

computer and to have that bridge of the
past with technology being the thing to

break the news for Steve Rogers is again,
what continues to make this so brilliant.

Jude: Steve Rogers is the
ultimate get off my lawn guy.

Sorry.

Oh man.

Trey: Yeah.

I don't think we need to go further.

I think you just unpacked it all.

That's what Steve Rogers is.

Get off my lawn.

Jude: Nick's Sandy, uh,
you know, you're right.

Like there is that interesting dynamic
of tech and Rogers, you know, and, and

you made, you made the joke earlier
about, you know, it seems to be working

on some kind of electricity, you know,
and, uh, in the seventies catching up

online, but like I don't and until, you
know, hear you speak about it and think

about where we're at with social media.

If you think about when he went into the
ice and where we're at technologically,

like the gradual advances that in my
lifetime, I got to experience that he

had a rush coming out to them, like,
so, so think about this, this way.

The movie was made in 20 14, 14, and
he makes the comment, the internet.

Oh, so helpful.

The internet in 2014 is unbelievably
different than the internet

in the mid to late nineties.

When I was in.

Or early two thousands in
college, you know what I mean?

And like that rush and that level
of technology, you know, I, I,

yeah, I would definitely see him
and just be like, get off my lawn.

Like, this is not how we do
things, you know, this isn't

Trey: it.

Well, if it makes it to put
it into context, I was, I

was Googling this in 2014.

There is no Tik TOK.

Instagram has only been
around for four years.

And if you think about how
gradually Instagram has changed

in features just within the last
year, four years is an eternity.

And I wanted a Google, some
more examples, but you're right.

I mean, the, the way that the internet
is constantly evolving, you know,

I've mentioned this book before on the
podcast and I've yet to finish it, but

I need to, uh, it was a book called, uh,
present shock, and essentially dealing

with how us today are dealing with the
immediacy of just constantly being.

In tune with everything and
everyone and news all the time and

how that has just changed the way
that we think as a, as a species.

I can't imagine what that is like for
Steve Rogers who woke up in this and is

already having to deal with the present
shock on top of the present shock that

modern people are dealing with as well.

Yeah,

Jude: it's insane.

So I want to change gears
just a little bit, but I'm

not ready to leave this scene.

Uh, and again, it, for me, it is that
I don't, I don't know why I found

myself in this space of like, oh, this
time, what popped up and what I didn't

last time for me, I thought this scene
with Zola would brought up a really

interesting philosophical question.

Uh, I kind of laugh because
I feel like it's silly now.

Um, but this whole idea of personal
identity and the body and the

mind, I mean, Zola downloaded his
mind or himself to a computer.

Okay.

Technically speaking, that's
probably slower than my iPhone.

Um, when you look at what's in the
room, um, just, just saying, you know,

light, like technically speaking,
like Siri could probably take you,

but, but it does bring up to me.

It was interesting philosophical
thing of like, okay, wait a minute.

What is the MCU?

And I don't know.

And from the, from the, from the
director's commentary, I don't think

they were trying to do this, but
this is just the way I think about

things and things that interest me.

What is the MCU trying to say about who we
are and what it means, um, to, to be us in

this mind, body problem, you know, cause
here you're clearly like they want you to

say this is Zola, this isn't, you know,
I, I'm not talking to a computer that is.

Plugged into a wall that has
electricity running to it.

That's running an algorithm that
is making guesses as to what Zola

would think and say, based off of
downloaded past memories and content,

you know what I mean for content, for
lack of a better term, they want you

to think that this is Zola, right?

Because what Zola did
was a conscious choice.

I'm stalling, I'm, you know, the, the
missile coming at them, you know, to the

idea to think I'm going to stall you.

So the missile can come and
I can launch the missile, um,

alert Hydra to, to be here.

Like that is all creative, active
thought, if that makes sense.

Um, and maybe, you know, people
are gonna disagree with me.

That's fine.

But what I mean by this creative,
actual thought is, you know,

otherwise it's an algorithm.

That's making these assumptions
based off of this content or data

that was downloaded from the person
Arnold, you know, um, Armand Zola.

And so I just found that fascinating
here, the com the, the commentary

it was making, you know, especially
cause like the general line is

what we don't get into any kind of
spiritual or mystical stuff till Dr.

Strange.

And you have those really cool
scenes where, you know, um, and we've

seen it in multiple movies now, you
know, thinking, um, in game in Dr.

Strange where it was like Dr.

Strange gets pushed out of his body
and there's clearly a separation.

Well, like with the first instance we
get of that actually is right here.

Well, we can actually go all the way
back to Jarvis and what is Jarvis,

but it's just fascinating to me
of like, of like, what is that?

W what are they, you
know, what is that idea?

What are they putting out?

You know, are we more body than mind?

Are we more mind than body?

Is, is it, well, I would argue that
the, for the MCU, it is not a, I don't

know the right word I'm looking for, but
it's, it's not a combining of the two.

They can clearly be separated.

Um, and that was something that I just,
this time around, I was like, oh, I

just, I got just, you know, just sucked
down that hole of like, oh, I gotta,

you know, this is fascinating to me.

Um, so yeah, so like, that was.

I don't know why, like that was, that was
something that, that, and we, and we've

dealt with this as he people, you know,
we have that, we've had the movie avatar

we've had, we've had the matrix, right.

We've had the matrix come
back again and resurrect.

Cause that was a good idea.

Um, you know, we had the previous
movie with Keanu Reeves before the

matrix that made people actually
back in 99, people don't remember,

there was nervous about a great,
another Keanu Reeves computer movie.

Uh, cause he was in Johnny mnemonic where
the whole idea was like, I'm going to

race the mind and it's like a hard drive.

Right?

Um, Kind of thing.

And there was a John Cusack movie.

I don't remember the name of it
where he put his memories into

a computer so we can live on.

So like we've dealt with this a lot,
you know, and like, as humanity,

we're, we're curious about this.

Um, and, and so like, I don't know
why, and that just stuck out to

me this time of winter soldier of
just like, oh, like, what is that

interaction happening right here?

And what, what is the MCU saying about
us and people, uh, saying that that

is, you know, acknowledging that that's

Trey: possible.

It's not a lens that I had brought to
this scene, but hearing you talk about it

just makes me want to pair it with, again,
with that Jasper Sitwell scene, where he's

explaining what it is they are intending
to do with the algorithm and making

these educated guesses and the basis for
why they think they can do this is how.

Willingly people put up that information
to be read like a book again, if superhero

movies are dealing in extremes, Zola has
literally put his life into a computer,

which is the exact same argument that
Hydro's making about what we do in

our relationship with the internet.

And so it's like, it makes me want
to rewatch it now that you have

provoked this thought because yeah,
I think that's a very interesting

thing to, uh, to observe like,

Jude: I mean, oh my gosh, this right.

You're treading the line of,
and um, and I know this has been

kind of a running gag, right.

Where I poke at you and I'm
not trying to do that here.

Like this is you're, you're running
the line now of like, what is real and

what are the possibilities, you know?

And, and you've established that no, we
can separate the two in this universe

and, you know, clearly have a thinking
conscience, if that makes sense.

Um, So we have the lookout, Tony Stark's
coming back, download a conscience.

I don't know.

Trey: Well, if we leave the writing up to
people in the sub Reddits, I think he'll

be back sooner than we think I've seen so
many fan theories about that happening.

Jude: I do not want him back.

I want to say that.

Oh,

Trey: I'm so glad we
got that on the record.

Jude: Hey, I want his death to mean
something, you know, and, uh, okay.

Ironheart if he comes back with
a little, you know, his voice

for the, for the, you know, the
Jarvis voice, that would be neat.

And I think mentally I can
make the separation of like,

that's not stark, you know?

And that would be a really cool role
to keep him involved in that sense.

But beyond that, no, don't,
we, you know, let's move.

Trey: Let them rest.

Yeah.

Well, moving back to the winter soldier,
uh, I'm gonna move us along to, I think

one of the most important scenes here,
and that is after Steve and Natasha

have escaped camp Lehigh, uh, they are
looking for a place to shelter and it

is the one and only Sam Wilson, who we
talked about last week was established

as somebody that could be trusted.

You know, as important as Sam is to
this moment, the place I want to stop

first is that conversation between
Steve and Natasha and the reason why

is we already talked about it a bit
with the conversation and the truck.

Uh, for me, this conversation
is the inverse of that moment.

Um, we have gotten to the point
of the film where everything

Steve thought he knew was a lie.

And at this point it should be
his world is flipped upside down.

He should be at wit's end.

Natasha points out.

You seem pretty chipper for somebody
who just found out everything is

fake and he has the line, I guess.

I just like to know who I'm fighting.

If that is not like a fantastic Steve
Rogers moment, I don't know what it is.

And the thing that makes it
beautiful is that, whereas in that

truck scene, Natasha, that was the
one that was cool and collected.

It is now here, Steve having to mentor
her through this realization of, I

thought I was operating under the
orders of somebody I could trust.

And now I no longer can.

What does that say about me when I thought
I was giving my life for something good.

And so it just, it feels like a
beautiful inverse in closing what

it is we started after they, they
started escaping from the hospital.

Yeah,

Jude: no, you're right.

Like, I don't know.

Hmm.

I don't know if I ever saw it that way.

I, and as a, as an inverse, um, like
my, my impression of that scene is, is.

Natasha realizing, you know, like we
we've seen her throughout this film

and some of these conversations being
guarded in and seeing her open up here

and realize like, here's the things I
did care about and mean something to me.

And now that is gone.

Um, but the idea that it's an
inverse of what we see from Steve, I

didn't, it didn't click, uh, for me.

Uh, so that's, yeah, that's fantastic.

Um, and I love the answer of, of Rogers,
of like, I just want to know who to

fight, um, you know, which is w which
I think shows kind of that I just, for

fun, I want it, cause I want to say
it, it shows that you get off my lawn.

Um, and what I mean by that
is like it oversimplifies.

The past to say this, but, but, but
I think we, we, we look at the past

sometimes in this light, uh, fairly or
unfairly, but this idea of like, oh,

back when you know, Steve was going on
world war two, and this, it was so clear

cut, and you knew who you were fighting
and this was good and this is bad.

And now everything's so jumbled, you know?

And so it is one of those like,
like almost in that line, there's

also like, it just, you know, I
just want things to be simple.

Again, I, it just tell me
who to fight, you know?

Uh, because you had a face, you had
a name, you had something tangible.

Um, now I realized that
is oversimplifying.

What, what it was like
to live during that time.

You know what I mean?

But like, that's kinda what I got out of
that line to say, I just, I just need to

know who to punch and not in a sense of
like, oh, just the Hawkeye, I'm a weapon

point me or this like brainless meat head.

Just tell me who to punch.

But like, like, it was almost just
this sign of a frustration, you

know, uh, the side of frustration
and being exhausted and that comment.

Trey: Yeah.

You're doing this like intentionally,
but I think there is when you're talking

about like, oh, just tell me who to punch.

Like, I feel like a little bit reductive
of the moment because the line is,

I just like to know who to fight.

I think the thing that's
missing from that line is it's

almost like what to fight for.

Like, this is the ideal I have.

Now.

This is something concrete.

There is no obfuscation.

I can play to the values that I have set.

And it's clear to me now.

Um, and that's what that
line speaks out to me.

It's not, not so much just like, oh great.

I know, I know who to beat up.

Now.

It is.

I have a clearer understanding
of, of the values that I want to

adhere to and how to apply it to
this world that I find myself in.

Yeah.

Jude: Yeah, no, I think you probably
put it in a better way than I did.

Trey: We established last episode, I'm all
for that male beating the chest bravado.

Cause I did love that scene where
he said, I thought you were more

than a shield and he owned up to the

Jude: challenges.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and again, I wasn't trying to
come across that, but I was just, again,

we've, we've tried it, we've talked
about, and we keep going back to this,

like, man, what was it like to win?

And again, that just shows how into
the movie we are that we're thinking

in these terms, I'm like, man, what
was it like to be thrust into this?

And you were in ice and all of that,
you know, to be thinking of that.

And so like being in that head
space, I think is part of where

I'm looking at of just like,
just please tell me who to fight.

Like, you know what I mean?

Cause it's like, um, so yeah, so it's
not that I was trying to be reductive.

It w it was just this kind of like,
like, okay, just tell me what to do.

Uh, this is my skillset.

Let me go use it, you know?

Um, So I feel like it was a moment
of frustration, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Trey: You know, I, one of the things
I highlighted coming into this scene

was the importance of Sam and a minute
try and thread this carefully because

I don't want it to be like, oh,
you know, carrot, Sam's not his own

character because he definitely is.

But if we are going through this
moment with Steve of re establishing

who it is and how he wants to use
that mantle, I mean, it is what I've

talked about is that inspiration
to others to do the right thing.

And we just talked about what
that is for, for Natasha, as he's

helping her see, like, Hey, maybe
there is times where you can, can.

Be true to who you are without
feeling like you have to

deceive to fit into this world.

And on that same token, I
mean, he doesn't even have to

go through that transformation
because this is just who he is.

Sam is willing to go and fight
alongside captain America because it

is aligned with his ideals as well.

And I like the speed at which he's like,
oh yeah, you know, I was, I was out of

this, but captain America needs my help.

Of course, I'm going to jump back in.

And so I think this moment it starts
to reclaim the light or the beacon of

hope that I think the, the, the shield
mantle becomes in wanting to inspire

other people to do the right thing.

Jude: That beacon of hope line, you
just said line, that's not like, as if

it's scripted, like the beacon of hope.

Trey: Have you seen my notes?

Jude: There's 30 pages.

Uh, so I, I do, I like
that, that, that beacon of.

You know, cause there isn't
that moment of like, no you got

out, I can't ask you to do this.

And he's like, look, when captain
America is asking me, it is so weird.

Like I can read that scene, very cynically
if I wanted to in different stuff.

But like I think what it shows about
Sam's characters is his, and we see

this throughout Sam, if you decide
to track him or just watch Falcon in

the winter soldier, but he has such
a strong sense of duty and obligation

and that sense of doing what's right.

That it's like when, when he says that
and sees this in captain America, like

Kevin American needs my help, you know?

And so I am obligated.

I have a duty to render that assistance
because I'm capable, you know?

And so I love the, you know, it's not
just a corny line, you know, it, it

truly gives an insight into, to Sam's
character and that character like,

like virtue, like his character virtue.

Trey: Yeah.

Yeah.

And think about what we established
in the first part of our commentary at

the, in the beginning, when they first
meet, there is genuine connection that

they have found between each other.

And it just because of the, the
shared experiences, but also the

honesty with between each other.

And if you fast forward a little
bit to the line where Steve tells

Nick fury, you know, soldiers trust
each other, that's what makes it

an army that this is that payoff.

This is their quote unquote small army,
but it is because now they trust each

other and they can work together in
tandem because there is Goodwill bought

between servicing those friendships.

Jude: Yeah.

And notice like there
is a buildup to right.

You know it okay.

Bishop.

Okay.

Um, well it just, what my thought
was, there was a buildup of when

Sam joins and there's this trust
he's not thrown into the big, final.

Right.

Do you have him work with
the capturing the Senator?

You have Jasper said, well, uh, yeah,
sit well, I'm sorry that the senior

center, but capturing Jasper sit well,
like, and then the car chase scene and

then like, so he has a gradual build
up until the final action sequence.

We don't just, he's just
not jumped right into it.

Um, and again, my, my critique of, of
the Hawkeye, that last scene where Kate

fought you, be careful here, big, bad.

I'll put it that way just in case,
um, where I, it felt like too much

too quick, you know, in that gradual
leveling up of what we've seen her do.

Um, whereas here, there,
there is that trust, but.

We're still movie.

Right.

And there is, okay.

You know, let's integrate Sam into
this team and it's not just okay.

Go and do task now.

You know what I mean?

Um, and so that, that is
something I do appreciate this.

Uh, oh.

And maybe it's just so well paced, uh,
again, it's the Russo brothers like that

shouldn't be a surprise that it was all

Trey: based on.

It's hard to believe this is their
first film in the MCU, like, right.

It's just so good.

Jude: Right off.

I read, I read something recently
that they almost quit during civil

war because of creative differences
and like imagining what that would be.

Differently.

I it's a horror story.

If there is a multi, if
there's a, multi-verse where

that happens, I'm Khaled.

I'm not, oh man.

Trey: Well, you know, you, you alluded
to it a little bit, but I think the

last remaining thing we really need
to talk about here in this act,

two section is the highway scene.

Uh, so to set the stage, this
is the moment after they had

gotten Jasper Sitwell to talk.

Uh, they are driving down the highway
and the winter soldier, intervenes and

murders, Jasper Sitwell, which kicks
off a series of events that concludes

with Steve Natasha and Sam being
apprehended by Hydra slash shield agents.

You know, I already talked a
little bit about it, how it's

it's, you know, the beacon of hope.

This is the reclaiming of that mantle.

Um, this really feels like our team
firing on all cylinders together

and having found a way to do it.

That is not relying on the
compartmentalization that Nick

fury was, uh, putting forth
at the beginning of the movie.

This, this is founded truly on trust
and I like how it stretches the.

Limits of trust by splitting these
people up, like you have them together.

And then eventually
Natasha gets on the run.

Steve gets taken out through
the bus and Sam is left up alone

providing cover on the top.

But because this team has jelled,
they are able to fight through this

scene together and make it out.

Um, almost in one piece, the, there
there's some, some wounds here and

there, but it's just, it's narratively
working on a great level for me.

And I mean, what, what better test for
this team than the winter soldier himself?

And again, if so much of this movie is
Steve figuring out who he is, the test

that they give him to bring back his
past and this form of, of Bucky, which

he doesn't know it at this point quite
yet, but we, uh, and subsequent views.

It's just it's the past is
literally coming back to fight him.

And if the question for him is
can he save the ideals of his

past in this modern setting?

That is the problem of Bucky.

In a nutshell,

Jude: can you save the past
in this modern setting?

And that's the problem of Bucky in
a nutshell, man, last part I was, I

was a set of jokingly, but I could
just sit here and listen to you.

Um, I'm really, really good.

Trey: Thank you.

And, you know, just to hammer it home a
little bit more, I mean, the reason that I

got to that level of thinking is something
my dad has always taught me and I'm sure

he's picked it from somewhere else, but.

You want to have a surefire
way of demonstrating.

You've learned something, you teach it.

And so the idea of Steve having
learned the, this journey that he's

been on up to this point and now is
being tasked with, can I save Bucky?

Can I teach him the things that
I have learned up to this point?

I think it just makes it such a
dramatically rich, um, section that we're

dealing with in, and you see it in the
way that the fights are taking place.

Um, because I mentioned in last week's
first part of captain America stories,

working at their highest potential,
whenever they're treating the shield

as its own character, the first time
they had their confrontation, Bucky

catches the shield and throws it back
because Steve wasn't ready for it.

Now that shield is switching places
back and forth between Steve and Bucky.

And it doesn't matter because it is
Steve, who is sure of what his ideals are.

And I think he has more than.

Equipped to handle this until the
revelation of, oh, this is Bucky.

Jude: Well, it's interesting.

Cause we we've talked about this
in terms of violence, right.

And the, the, the beginning of the
aluminum's Le Marion star, is that right?

Yeah.

The century Nova prime
guardians of galaxy anyways.

Um, but like, no, we talked about
the violence and like the, the

why that scene is forgiving.

Why did we see the opening scene of
falconer, winter soldier differently?

Are you facing somebody
faceless and nameless?

And here, this is the moment where.

Like you're faced with Bucky,
you know, like it, like, it has

a face, the enemy now has a face
and, or let's put it this way.

Cap got what he wanted.

I know who to fight the winter soldier.

Damn.

It's my best friend.

Like

And so and so in, in that sense and in
that, and that reveal, you know, it's

that I find fascinating, you know,
like it's a simplicity, I know who

to fight now, but oh, this is there.

Um, now I love the sequence and the
way they got to that point, you know?

Cause it was so again, the brilliance
of the Russo brothers with the close

camera, that in tight, you know,
quick actions, um, it just felt

so personal, if that makes sense.

And then when you had that reveal.

And in Rogers realizes who he was
going so hard against, you know,

that I think, I think that's the
other thing that made that moment.

So impactful is how they, the
physical confrontation that,

that in combination is putting it
very mildly of their fight there.

You know, I mean, he, they were going
down the highway, like probably I'm

guessing Saudi miles an hour in theory.

Um, and winter soldier just
like rips the guy out of the car

Trey: instead of been wearing a seatbelt.

Jude: Hey, safety.

Um, you know, our grandmother used
to not wear her seatbelt right now.

I know.

Trey: Oh, I thought you
meant even older than that.

I didn't know that.

Oh my

Jude: gosh.

No.

Yeah, she didn't because it
would wrinkle her clothes.

We're talking about a woman who ironed her
money because she wanted it to be crisp.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you

Trey: have to do that for our Christmas

Jude: anyways.

Trey: Not the seatbelt part that was bad.

I didn't know about
that, but the money our

Jude: was great.

Um, like in other words, it's it was,
it was a really, you know, intense

battle and fight that, that in that
moment, really, I think showed Rogers

what was at stake maybe beyond just,
oh, I gotta take this, this thing down.

Yeah.

And

Trey: the secrets of, again, you
know, I, I alluded to it a little

bit, but the sequencing of it is.

Great.

And that it separates Steve from Bucky.

Um, we have, and I'll go and say it
cause I wanted to highlight some of my

favorite parts of this sequence itself.

And I think it is the Natasha part of it.

She is going head to head with a
winter soldier without any help.

And I mean, she's holding her own, like
I will never not love that scene where

she jumps off the highway, uses the
grappling hook to swing over running full

speed that notices the, the shadow of the
winter soldier and the, the action stops.

And it's kind of like
half a beat of silence.

And then you see the shot on the
winter soldiers glasses, because

Natasha had like, outwitted him in the
positioning of herself where she just

slowly walks out and shoots upwards.

Like it is, it is so cool.

Like on top of everything that
is happening narratively, it's

just really, really cool and

Jude: thrilling.

Yeah.

You know what I noticed that I'd
never noticed before was that the.

Grappling hook thing that like widow used
in Tasha to do her little, like acrobatic

thing was the same device Yulaina used
when, when she was like, oh, this is fun.

And then like goes and jumped
out the window and okay.

That's awesome.

Like, I never noticed it before until
this, um, like I, well, like after

seeing Hawkeye and going back, like,
I didn't notice it during Hawkeye.

And I think that that was to me really.

I dunno why they just didn't touch that.

I love that consistency.

Yeah.

The other thing that I think they
did really well with this sequence

was it came out of nowhere.

You know what I mean?

Like in the elevator we talked about it.

Like we all knew it was coming, you
know, cap was looking for a fight and

wanted to beat up on some people in
he's like, Hey, who wants to get out?

Like, we all knew it was coming.

Um, even with the Nick fury
thing, you knew it was.

Right.

It was just like, you had that tension
the way they built it, you know, and,

and the police cars surrounding them.

This one, it was like, they're
driving down the highway.

And all of a sudden it was
just like all hell broke loose.

And, and, and because they did
it that way, I think this whole

sequence made it even that much more.

Trey: I mean, it's, it's hard to get more
jarring than going down the highway and

having the door ripped out from the side.

Right.

And I mean, and it was
an intentional choice.

Like they wanted the winter
soldier to be an unstoppable force.

Like they are the incarnation of death.

And I mean, they do a wonderful
job of, of creating that

here in this action sequence.

Oh, Well, I think that's going to wrap up
act two, and we're going to go ahead and

move into the final act of this movie.

Uh, this is going to take us from
the moment that Maria Hill breaks

out Sam, Steve, and Natasha, uh,
through to the end of the movie.

So starting with you this time, uh, where
would you like to start with enact three?

Jude: I want to start here.

Cause again, we got act three Maria
Hill, like you said, breaking them out.

I'll be honest.

First watch.

I did not see that coming.

So that was a really cool
surprise and moment, you know,

thinking back to the first watch.

I didn't, I didn't see that coming.

Um, you know, you have the, the moment
I I'm going to say this broadly.

One of the things I really
appreciate about this movie and

it's a criticism we've had at the
Disney plus shows, which is having.

The final action set piece that we
know these movies have in a Disney

plus shows for some of them, it felt
like, okay, we have to have this

because we have to, you know, um,
where this didn't feel that way, right?

Like, like in any movie, you know, it's
coming, but you know, they do it well

when it gets there and it feels natural.

It doesn't feel like obligatory.

And this definitely didn't feel that way.

Like it's you still felt the
stakes of what's going on.

You still felt, man.

How is basically the three of them?

Maria Hill, sorry, the four of them.

Cause you know, fury was
useless at this point.

Um, I said that just for the Sandy,
uh, Well, you know what I mean?

Like, like going up against all of shield.

Um, and so you did have this
sense of going in of like, okay,

I know this is going to happen.

I know it's going to be successful.

Cause I had, I'm familiar with movies when
they did such a good job of, of, of like,

how are they going to get out of this?

And that's what you
want from these movies.

We know

Trey: more often than not the, and
the protagonists are gonna win.

Like that is just the structure
of the movies that we are used to,

but good writing is being able to
make you believe they can fail.

And so I see what you mean.

Like it is, it is insurmountable
odds that they have to go up through

the entirety of shield to be able
to, uh, you know, accomplish the

goals that they have set forth.

So, you know, there, there's a couple
places I want to go to, but I'm going

to start here because I do think
there is some work on our part with,

with Nick fury, at least for me, uh,
we did get called out by Nick, Sandy

about being a little too harsh on him.

Uh, you know, you brought up the
idea of, of how much has he really

changed if he was still wanting
to salvage shield here at the end.

And I think one of the things that I
wanted to kind of reset here is you

mentioned the line security through might.

That was the ideology.

I think that Alexander Pierce
had, and it is the same ideology

that we compared to Nick fury.

And I think one of the things that I
wanted to set up, uh, back then that

I didn't get a chance to until now is.

Yes, they are two sides of the same coin.

They both share this idea of, I
can't trust you with your own safety.

So only I have the power to
do this, to do what's right.

The thing that I think separates
them is whenever you hear Alexander

Pierce really talk about it
is about what they want to do.

It's coming from this place of
wanting to have offensive force.

Like they will be ready to attack.

They will never be from behind.

Whereas with Nick fury, it is this
feeling of wanting to protect it's

misguided it's wrong, but ultimately
it is wanting to defend people.

Um, so I think that that's a very
important distinguishing factor

between them because it gets you
to this point where you're right.

It is not great that Nick fury was wanting
to salvage sealed, but I think it also.

Is showing the Baton pass, come to
fruition in that it is Steve's decision

of no, you gave me this mission.

It all goes.

And I think that is evidence of.

Again, to use this phrase, beacon of hope.

That is Steve Rogers and captain
America, the character and the

learning process for Nick fury.

Um, and I think if it would have
been like an immediate switch on Nick

Fury's part, I think that would be a
little bit more disingenuous because

I go back to what I said last week,
whenever you're dealing with extremes

for so long to justify the ends, the
extreme stop being surprising to you.

And it's going to take time, I
think for Nick fury to walk back

from that path, but the fact that
he can recognize the error of it, I

think speaks volumes of who he is.

And I think, again, it is the
strength of captain America, that it

is compassion to the person that is
what brings them back to the light.

Jude: And you say that, I don't know if
we know that Fury's learned his lesson.

Um, and let's hope well, and, and,
and, and I'm saying that genuinely,

because at the end of far from home,
making sure we're clear that I'm talking

about far from home, not no way home,
far from home, it gets real confusing.

It does.

Um, but the end of that, the
intact, we see Nick fury in space.

We're assuming at that point it's
sword, I'm hoping it's sword.

Cause I don't want this sword treatment
to be just what we got in one division.

Uh, cause that would be problematic,
but if it is sword and they take

some kind of, and you start to see
this trend of some kind of line of

like, that's what he's doing was
sword a similar thing was shield.

I don't think we can say that
you've learned your lesson yet.

You just traded one
agency for another word.

Um, yeah, so, so, and
that's going to be upon.

I think Sam Jackson, as a, as an
actor and caretaker of fury and

FYGI and any of those writers to be
aware of that, if that makes sense.

So, so like, so like clearly in this
movie, I think we can say he had

to be taught a lesson cause he's
like, we're going to salvage it.

And not only did he, but even
Maria Hill was like, no, this

has got to go capture it.

Um, and, but I do wonder to what extent
I hope they don't, they undo that

a little bit with sword, you know?

And, and if they do, I hope
it's done because I think it

can be done if they do it.

Right.

You know, but just to automatically
like go back to square one, you

know, that, that doesn't work.

Trey: You know, we talked
about this a little bit.

Whenever we covered Hawkeye.

Asking the question, did they write
themselves into a corner with having

the baggage of Ronan and how they
wanted to handle it within that series?

It feels like this is another
moment where they have written

themselves into a corner.

And I think it is a bit of a by-product of
it's been over 10 years, like at a certain

point, some things are going to get
strained or tested just because I don't

think anybody has that level of foresight
to write that tightly of a narrative.

But it is when you zoom out and
see where these characters are.

Now, while we talk about this movie,
then it is a little dubious that he

went from one organization to the next,
assuming that that's what he's doing at

the end credit scene of far from home.

Uh, because all we saw was him
in space with different scrolls.

And I think we kind of got the illusion
at the end of one division, like Rambo

was going to meet with Nick fury.

So yeah, I think, I think that's me
clumsily trying to hold onto my point,

but I think you're right there, there is
some jury left to, uh, Nick Fury's defense

and I hope they don't, they don't take

Jude: away from it here.

Right.

And I'm not trying to be overly harsh,
but like, like there's an in that car,

that's what makes it so difficult to do.

Some of these reviews is, you know,
we're looking at this movie, but

we know that that story carries on.

It's not like we're doing Chong Xi
in, oh, what's going to happen next.

And I hope they do that.

We know what they are going to do next.

Like, we we've seen this and we've
seen the direction it's going and you

don't, we love these characters and
you don't want, you want to see the

growth, not a backtrack in retread.

Um, if you know, if that makes sense.

So.

So, yeah, so like I I'm with you on here.

Like he, to me, like he learned
his lesson, um, you know, in that,

in that kind of, that endorsement
of what caps gonna do, you know?

Um, it's okay.

So, so let me, let me jump back into
there because I want to explore this a

little bit more, and I think about the
hero's journey and the story circle.

If fury is playing the
role of the mentor, right?

Like typically the mentor passes on,
I mentioned some kind of talisman,

some kind of object to our hero.

That's on this journey, the hero
goes to the belly of the beast.

It has to return and show that they have
learned and incorporated the mentor's

lessons, um, and utilize it and bring
it back in a weird way because of

the way it started with the mistrust.

Fury is a mentor, but he's
not, you know what I mean?

He's definitely the mentor ish
person that sends them on this quest.

But you have this question,
can I trust them or not?

And here though, the lesson learned
that he brings back is one that has

to, as you said, be taught to Mick
himself, the mentor himself, you

know, and he says, well, I guess
you're calling the shots now cap.

Um, so that I do find
interesting in that, in that

Trey: dynamic.

And I wonder if that's what works on a
subconscious level for this movie and

that we're so used to that archetype
that you've laid out is the story circle.

That's a mentor passes on the
knowledge to the protagonists.

Mentor dies.

Protagonists takes that
knowledge returned.

Having changed, not to go back down that
road, but I wonder if on a subconscious

level, what makes the surprise of
Nick fury actually being alive succeed

and not just be like, oh, okay.

You know, no one ever dies in the Marvel
cinematic universe is the, the revelation.

No, the mentor needed to learn as well.

And that is what makes it
prominent that he's back.

And he's like, all right, we're
going to continue where we left off.

And Steve's like, no, you gave me this.

This is what you have learned and what,
this is what I've learned and what I

am here to teach you now kind of thing.

So almost kind of an
inversion of the archetype.

Jude: Yeah.

I get excited.

This is fun stuff for me to talk
about, like the story circle and

the archetypes and, and where we
see those connections and where

those little variations come from.

Uh, because if you don't have
those variations, the variations

are part of what gives us this
originality, uh, variations of.

A part of, I think in representation.

Um, you know, and, and so seeing
these variations gets me excited

and, you know, cause, cause we could,
you make those small changes, but

it feels small, but they're going
to be significant to somebody else.

Cause they see it through their own lens.

And so I just, and so like none
of that has to do with winter

soldier, but like use what you said,
like that's where it all I guess.

And so, yeah.

So, okay.

So yeah.

Trey: Well I find it interesting.

I mean it is.

I'll just say it, you were right.

This definitely needed to be two
parts because I don't think we would

have the, the runway to be able
to dig into these things that we

clearly have a lot to talk about.

Jude: Yeah.

I just, I met her.

I was like,

Trey: all right, well, if that's
staying in moving along, uh, you know,

one of the things I want to circle
back on, uh, before we get to the

pretty much the, the climax of this
film is we get that flashback where

we see how much Steve and Bucky were
intertwined in their early lives.

Uh, and they do it in small ways and
that, and showing that Bucky was there

for the death of Steve's parents and
how Bucky's able to figure out where

the hidden key is a lot of great stuff.

But the thing that stuck out to
me this time, especially sitting

down to take notes is if the.

Lesson that Steve Rogers is now
broadcasting here at this part of the film

is that trust and friendship, it makes
it heartbreaking to go back all the way

to that moment and realize it is Bucky,
who is the one that had instilled it in

him, because that is where we get the line
I'm with you to the end of the line pal.

And so not only does it work to, to
really hurt whenever we're seeing

them fight towards the end of
the movie, but it, it shows where

that ingrained value came from.

And the thing that I want to highlight
as well before I throw it back to you

is again, we talked about it a little
bit before we started recording about

how Sam doesn't really get a lot
until Falcon and the winter soldier,

but he makes the most of what it is.

He has this moment after the
flashback scene, where Steve is

kind of standing out on that dam, I
think, and, and Sam comes up to him.

Sam is iterating.

Bucky's not the kind of person you save.

He's the kind of person you put down.

And I think there's many reasons why
that is a wonderful here in this movie,

but I want to highlight the growth
that Sam has from this moment where

he honestly believes this to where he
ends up in the Falcon and the winter

soldier, where he is adamant about
putting Carly down is not the answer.

Like I think that shows growth on his
part that is, uh, worth mentioning here.

It's, it's a bit of an echo where we
can see that he learned it is possible

to play towards the person and settling
it in peaceful conflicts rather than

just trying to push her way through,
uh, with Steve Rogers in this moment.

Jude: Yeah.

I love that connection because
that is a very powerful line.

I mean, the language, this
is the person you put down.

You know, it's very, it's not, this is
the person type of person you killed.

This is not, this is your enemy.

Like put down, has that language of
dehumanizing, you know, it's like,

it's like, what you do is a rabid
animal or so to speak, you know?

Um, so yeah, and then to, to go that
then to where you end up with Carly,

or even the two of them, right.

You know, like their own relationship
and where they go and where they end up.

You know, I wonder if, if part of
that group therapy was like, you

know what I did tell cap one time you
are the kind of person you put down.

Like, I wonder if that happened.

That would be, you know, because
that is such a powerful way to put

it, you know, such a dehumanizing
way to put it in and stuff.

Um, so yeah, like it's at mattress
worthy is Sam, like if he didn't, if

he didn't know and had to ask like,
Hey, who's actually the bad guy.

And capsulate like the one shooting at
you, like how much does he really know?

Trey: Oh, well that went into the dressing

room.

So I think we're getting to the climax
of this film, which is the final sequence

where they have pushed back against Hydra.

And Steve has made the declaration
that eight is Alexander Pierce, who is

behind all the chaos that has ensued,
uh, in the previous days, uh, shuffle

and, you know, I, I couldn't get out of
this review without taking some time to

talk about that captain America speech
that he gives, uh, you know, to start

with the quote, you know, he says the
price of freedom has always been high,

but it's a price I'm willing to pay.

And if I'm the only one, then so be it.

But I'm willing to bet I'm not.

And again, I I've said it multiple times,
this episode, multiple times last episode,

it is the inspiration to do better.

And it is almost reminiscent
of the dark night.

And we've alluded to it many times if
that boat experiment and about like

each boat has the trigger and it's the
trust of each other, not to push it.

The thing that I like about this that
feels like it goes a little bit further.

Because the infiltration
of Hydra is a thing that is

indistinguishable from each other.

Like nobody knows who's on what side.

The thing that I think is wonderful
about this speech is that captain

America has equipped everybody with
the chance to pick up that shield.

Because even though they can't
tell who is on what side of this,

this dilemma, the compass that
they have is to do the right thing.

And we see that.

In so many different cases.

So for example, you have the one where
rum lo is charging the, the, the guy at

the computer and he stands his ground.

And that kicks off that whole
shootout that happens there.

Uh, you have the, um, the various
different guards who are fighting

against each other, as they're
trying to get to the, uh, the

aircraft and trying to stop them.

They're like, it's just multiple
situations where you don't really have a

clearly defined idea of who is the quote
unquote bad guy, but the willingness

of people to stand for what is right
is just echoed through cap speech.

And I love it.

Jude: Yeah.

Well, okay.

The part that I want to hone into
right there, what you just said

about not knowing who's wrong.

Right?

Good, bad.

We get that in the standoff, you know, so,
so not only we get that in the speech, but

we get that physically in the standoff.

Um, and again, the Russo brothers
and their knowledge of films.

You know, reading, listen to the
commentary that standoff was broken.

I'm forgetting now who did it, but like
something dropped and fell on the floor.

And so there was like this silent
and then this all of a sudden this

crash, you know, and then that's kind
of what kicked off the action and

the, and that broke that tension.

And that was an homage to, uh, William
Africans, the Exorcist and the use

of, I think it was a telephone ring to
break this tension or something like

that, but like, they're getting their
knowledge of, of, of film and to be able

to say like, oh, how do I break tension?

Oh, this is how they did it.

It was, that was there.

And so I'm going to intentionally do that.

Um, that's where, again, not, I want
to get sidetracked, but that's where

I just really makes me angry when I
hear the whole, this is not cinema.

Thanks.

Because cause I listened to that
commentary and think about the

thoughtfulness behind it, the
understanding of film history, the

under the understanding of wanting
to tell a story and it's just like,

no, there is a craft to it as well.

You know what I mean?

That, that they're clearly displaying,
you know, as, as filmmakers.

Trey: And I think one of the
other arguments too, is like, you

know, movies are supposed to move
people and make them feel things.

Have you not been listening
to me for the last two hours?

Jude: Yeah.

Like, and they do, like, they do make
you, you know, move and fill things.

Do we have to all feel the same thing?

No.

Are we going to all feel the same thing?

No.

Um, you know, the, but that's fine.

You know?

And, and so, yeah, so like, that's, that
was something else that stuck out when

you mentioned that is like that moment.

And, and that was something from what I
watched and listened to that commentary

God, when the DVD first came out years
ago, um, that moment of just like, oh

man, that is just a clever way of like,
you know, as a filmmaker, I get the

script, you have cap speech, you get this
tension and you build up to this moment.

Okay.

But what breaks it?

Who makes the first move, you know, um,
You know, and it was a clever way to do

Trey: that.

And, you know, and I had talked
about, again, the way that the compass

that people have within this final
sequence is to do the right thing.

It speaks volumes about Natasha and we
get the closure of her, of her story here.

You know, again, I started this half of
the podcast by saying, this is just as

much her story as it is, uh, Steve Rogers.

And that moment that she's able
to get to like the declaration

of, I don't care about.

Obvious gating, who I am to
self for self preservation.

She is going to dump out everything
on the internet so that it is laid

bare for everybody to, to have
eyes on both the good and bad.

And the fact that she's at a point
where she can comfortably do that

because she knows it's the right thing.

And the step towards building a more
honest relationship with anyone like

abroad, being able to build honest
relationships, I think is huge for

her development within this movie.

Jude: Yeah.

He's like Pierce was the one that said it.

Are you ready for the world to see all
your secrets or to see who you really are?

And without hesitation, she was like,
are you, you know, um, and which, which

I love because it it's, it's a moment of
full agency on her part of doing this.

Uh, she understands the
ramifications, you know, and, and.

You know, there was a kind of a passive
aggressive thing on, on Pierce's part.

Like, cause it wasn't very violent.

It was just, are you ready for this?

Are you sure?

It kind of, you know, this implanting
of doubt and it's like, nah, I got

this, you know, um, bring it on.

So, so yeah, I loved that
element of that, that story.

Trey: And how cool is it that moment
where they're able to work in the,

the face swap of you think it's one
of the, uh, global defense counsel

and then do you have that revelation?

No, it's Natasha that moment.

I'll never forget in the theater.

It was just like, whoa.

And then it's just, I
dunno, this movie continues.

Believe it or not.

I am holding back from just gushing.

I'm trying to make it pertinent and
not just be like, oh, that's so cool.

But it slips out every now and then.

Jude: No, it's, it's a, it's
a movie worth gushing over.

Okay.

The last thing notes wise that, that
I have, and I want to make sure,

I, I say a friend of mine actually,
you know, responded when we put out

the call with like, Hey, what are,
what are the things that come out,

uh, or the, the standout to you?

Um, and the response was, you know,
from a friend, father, David Lugo,

S J Jesuit said he drops the shield.

A true hero, knows when to stop fighting.

So just a quick context.

So for him, uh, we worked together briefly
for three years and that's just part of

the Jesuit society of Jesus formation,
where they go to school to one of their

schools, the Jesuit school, and worked for
three years and then, and then move on.

So he was there during that time of
age of Ultron coming out and we saw Dr.

Strange, uh, I almost said
multi-verse madness, but Dr.

Strange.

When you come out, you know, at the
same, at the same time and stuff, and

we would have all these conversations.

And one of the things that we kept
circling back to with this movie

and just media in this John, or in
general, is that so often see this

redemption of our characters and
the, in this banality of this hero's

journey and cycle and in violence.

And some of the shows that most stick
with us, this one return to the Jetta that

comes to mind is when they dropped the
lightsaber, right, is like, I, I, the,

the right thing to do is to not fight.

And in this and this, this thing of, like,
I know you don't recognize me in that,

that exact moment, but I recognize you.

I know who you are.

I'm not going to fight you and lays
down that, that shield, um, which

also ends what you were talking
about in my head that, that the

shield has its own character.

Right.

And in that, that arc of like, you
know, of what the shield stands for

and what it doesn't and the ability to
drop the shield when you should, you

know, and actually kind of alluding to
John Walker that will get years later.

Um, so yeah, so like that moment.

You know, and we actually, the
Russo brothers did it the same.

It's very similar thing.

And this whole getting away from
her redemptive violence, uh, trope

or motif in, in civil war as well.

I'll save that thought
for when we do civil war.

But, but yeah, I love that.

That was his response.

And cause, cause we talked about it a lot,
you know, when, when we, not that we S

we still talk, but like when it was like
day to day, you know, working together,

talking, and that was just, you know,
fabulous moment in this, in this film.

Trey: Yeah.

One, I mean, it makes sense why they
pick, pick the scene as one of the first

memorable, because it is such a huge.

And it is the encapsulation.

I think of everything.

Steve has learned up to this point and
because we have the benefit of hindsight.

Now we know it is the start of what
he gets to by the end of civil war.

When he says I put my faith in people,
uh, I think the thing that makes this

moment special is he has the mission.

He knows he needs to do with those drives
that he's putting in so that it can

rewrite the project inside files so that
it takes out the ships and not the people.

So in that moment, that is the most
important thing, because that is how he's

going to save the most amount of people.

At the same time.

He has Bucky who is adamant
about stopping Steve.

And when the answer in front of Steve
is to put them down, as Sam says, he

continues to not fall into that trap.

And even after finishing
the original mission.

That putting down the shield.

That is the lesson.

I think he was trying to instill to
Nick fury in that moment, when they're

talking about like, Hey, I looked at
those SSR files like you D you guys

did some pretty messed up stuff.

I mentioned, there comes a point
where you have to put the weapon down.

And I think the, the moment
here is signifying that people

can never come before Nick can
never come after the mission.

Uh, if that makes sense, like that
is what, what Steve has realized.

It's like, it is not these institutions
that I have to blindly follow

it is the trust in each other.

And even like you said, even though
Bucky doesn't recognize them, Steve does.

And so that is the, the, the Gracie's
extending to Bucky to help put him

back on the path to redemption and
outside of this mindlessness that he

is unfortunately found himself, uh, uh,

Jude: warped into.

I love it.

There's that whole recognition.

This other person's humanity,
this, this, I see you.

I, I recognize you.

You are not my enemy.

I'm not going to fight you.

Like, eh, it just beautiful

Trey: and the way it transitions
to where you can see how it starts.

Like this is the mission for
Bucky, but by the end, where.

He is like I'm with you to then
in line Bucky screaming at them.

He's like, no, you don't like, he
just like, he cannot rectify why

this person won't put up a fight
and that is single-handedly erasing

or a chipping away, I should say.

Cause we're not completely there yet
chipping away at the programming that

he's been given his entire life where
you can even flash back to that moment

where he meets with Alexander Pierce.

And he's talking about like that man,
he knew me, he said he recognized

me Bucky as appealing to humanity
and to friendship and peers, his

answer is to just rewrite it.

And so the fact that we come back to
this moment and Steve is like, no, I

I'm going to treat you as a person.

It just

Jude: it's so good.

And Bucky in winter soldier mode, the only
language he knows is violence, you know?

And, and, and it just does.

Registered it doesn't compute of how
somebody or why somebody wouldn't.

Trey: And I mean, look what
he ends up ultimately doing.

He saved Steve.

Like I think that was something that stood
out to me in the director's commentary,

where they said, you know, here we are,
again, Steve Rogers has given his life to

the thing that he believes in and where
it not for Bucky, he would have died.

And so in a sense, Steve loses,
but it is because of the slow.

Lesson, he has taught Bucky.

He's actually saved himself through Bucky.

If that makes sense.

I don't want to take away from the change
in Bucky, but it is like to show you that

captain America effect of the inspiration.

It's just, I love it.

Jude: Oh yeah.

Trey: Oh man.

Well, it took two parts,
but I think we did it, man.

Jude: I don't know.

I'm not happy with our work.

Let's do it again.

Uh, all right.

Trey: We'll start over.

Believe it or not.

And this isn't like a
complaint or anything.

I still feel like there
are things we could have

Jude: said 100%, 100% like this is and
could have been worthy of a third episode,

but now I am, I am truly pleased with,
with our coverage and I'm excited to hear.

What do y'all think?

Trey: Well, I'll tell you what
we can transition here too.

Again, we said it last week.

Uh, we're going to finish off
some of the ones we didn't get to

interject as we were discussing,
but we put it out on social media.

Uh, what is the scene that
sticks out to you when you

think about the winter soldier?

Uh, and here are some
of the responses we had.

So the first one, uh, comes
in from TK on Instagram.

There was an idea, a quote, so many,
but I love camp and Nat undercover

at the mall, quote, unquote specimen.

And on a serious note, the
price of freedom is high speech.

And it makes sense that that would be
the one that is TK serious one as much

as they are a fan of captain America's.

I am I, that that scene
is just a perfect captain.

America's

Jude: scene captured.

Or Instagram, depending on your age
bracket, apparently, uh, he actually

said too, we mentioned one an episode
already in the elevator fight, but the

other is the street fight with buggy,
uh, which it's such a great choice,

although you didn't get specific those
two street streetlights of Bucky.

So I'm assuming I'm going
to go with the second one.

Assuming you meet with, with, with cat.

I'm

Trey: assuming the second one too.

You can let us know Sean.

Uh, the next one comes in from a
Nick Sandy on Instagram, and it says,

when Thanos says you should have
gone for the head after cap smashes,

Stanos his toe with a shield so dope.

No, but that scene where the mask
falls off and Steve noticed this Bucky,

Nick, Sandy keeping us on our toes.

Jude: I would love to see that somewhere.

And like one of those, how
it should have ended videos,

uh, Marvel with red on Instagram, oddly.

Nick fury talking about his grandfather,
I believe is what comes to mind.

You know what I, it's interesting.

You say oddly, but there is an element of.

We don't get a lot of Nick
fury, the human side of them.

And there, there is in the MCU, that's
the first entry of him telling this story.

So yeah, like I get it.

I get why that one,

Trey: it's a powerful scene.

Yeah.

This one comes in from fashion, Jimmy
on Twitter and it says, this is my

favorite MCU movie opening scene, the
ship fury versus the quote unquote cops.

But the one that gets me every time is
when Steve goes to see Peggy and they

have a conversation, then her mind
slips and she sees them again for the

quote unquote, first time since world
war II, the pain and Steve's eyes.

And I have to agree with Jimmy.

I don't think it's a scene.

We really honed in on that much outside
of alluding to it in other cases,

but it really is a truly powerful
scene that one of the last remaining

threads of connectivity that Steve
Roger has is, uh, unfortunately not.

Present in a way.

And that's, it's echoing with the
themes that I think he's wrestling.

Jude: Uh, Mr.

Melt on Twitter freeway fight scene.

This is by far the best choreography
to date in the MCU, um, trade.

Did you want to dispute
that and was shonky oh, no.

Sorry, Mr.

Mel, I am not messing with you.

I'm more messing with Trey and
his competing loves are shonky and

captain America, the winter soldier,

Trey: how dare you?

How dare you.

Listen, we'll have to save it
for whenever we do an episode

on the best fight scenes TMC.

Because

Jude: I'm with them, especially if
like you do see some of these behind

the scene that, um, you didn't have
to have the DVD barriers of entry.

Did you can find it on YouTube
where Sebastian, Stan was

just that cool night flip.

Like he was just walking around,
practicing that, like I got to

get this down and practicing that.

And then it was the choreography
because we talked about this.

It was personal.

It was intense.

Uh, you break that moment
of, oh, this is a person.

So yeah, like a hundred percent with you.

Trey: And finally, and so perfectly
poetic that this is the one we had done.

Uh, it comes from friend Daniel
on Twitter and the form of a gift,

which is the, on your left scene
at the beginning of the movie.

And I'm glad it is the one
we're ending on here at the end.

Uh, what a great way to bring that back.

Of course, those are the reactions
we had from the listeners.

So if you want to get in on that and
you should definitely make sure to be

following us, uh, at MC you need to know
on Twitter and Instagram, but, uh, I think

that's gonna do it any final thoughts here

Jude: on the way out.

Thank you for that's one
of our first two partner.

Um, for both of us, there was some
reservation on breaking this up

into two parts, just, you know, full
honesty with, with people that, uh,

It was fun and I'm glad we gave it.

I think we gave this film, the, uh,
treatment that it, um, it might not

have been in the podcasting needed,
but it is the podcasts they deserve

or what, how does that link up now?

Uh, it all comes back to knowing
you appreciate the, you know,

indulging us in doing the
two-parter it, you know, so, yeah.

Um, Yeah.

Trey: And, and I'll extend
that thanks to you, Jude.

Uh, because if listeners are following
us on social media, you will see, we put

up the behind the scenes conversation
where we debated whether or not to do it.

And this is without a doubt, your idea.

And it was the right one.

So I want to make sure just in case the
other one, doesn't make it in the edit.

Thank you.

Uh, this, this, this made me re
discover a love for this movie.

I haven't felt in a really long time.

Jude: That's awesome.

Uh, and of course you want to get
more of those behind the scenes

snippets that we try to get out for.

You make sure stray said you're
following us on social media.

And join the discord.

Um, you know, and you truly be behind
the scenes and interact with us

friend, Daniel, Sean, for the caption
life jumps in every once in a while.

Elliot from OSHA podcast jumps
in every once in a while.

Um, gosh, TK, you know, well, every
once in a while, jump in and number

of other people we listen to, and
it's just a fabulous community,

uh, for all the Marvel stuff.

Make sure you click on the roll
of sign, click on the emojis.

Um, and again, as, as we talk about
it as a community share with friends,

like, you know, it's, it's wonderful
to do we have this outlet to, to

listen, but we definitely want to,
you know, uh, have that conversation.

Cause we truly love this stuff.

Trey: And of course we'd like
to thank Nick Sandy for the use

of our theme song, which is his
rendition of the Avengers theme.

You can find more of his work
on a SoundCloud, which is linked

in the show notes as well.

That's going to do it.

Thank you so much for listening and Jude.

Thank you so much for doing this.

Thank you tray.

We'll see you all next week.

boom.

That's

Jude: an episode.

Okay.

Such a sentimental thing on like
the, on your left with friend Daniel

and the first thing that came to
mind, and I don't remember, I got

to find it, but there was some meme.

You know of drawing me or whatever
of like Sam, like that moment

right before he showed up in, in
game where he's like telling Dr.

Strange.

He's like, no, no, I sent that to you.

I, you, the synergy it's like,
no, no, I have to be on the left.

I have to go to the left,

Trey: make sure he is on his

Jude: left.

So like finally, you know, just
a sentimental tone of your voice.

And all I could think about
was that it was like, say,

no, no, it has to be the like,

Trey: oh man, I gotta be sure to
put that in the show notes of this.