Doctor Strange (2016) Marvel Retrospective Review!

The multiverse is mad, but before we can find out why, we'll have to go back to where it started in 2016! Join us as we break down all the narrative structures and themes of Doctor Strange!

Trey: Hello, and welcome back to another
episode of MCU Need to Know, a podcast

dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic
Universe, and everything you need to know.

I am Trey!

Jude: I'm Jude, how are you doing Trey?

Trey: I am so freaking excited.

We're finally getting to Dr.

Strange after teasing it for a few weeks.

Jude: I was wondering if we were going
to find a way not to record this.

Trey: I, I felt that
too, but I'm glad we are

Jude: like, it was something, you know,
I haven't knock on wood right here.

Here's a little knock, uh,
just to prevent like either

one of our houses losing power.


I knocked on the wood.

So I just say it, it feels like something

Trey: it's funny.

Like every time we ever set
a plan on what we're going to

do on the podcast life laughs.

He always had to pivot at the last minute,
but uh, I, uh, I'm having to be doing this

and more importantly, I'm happy to have

Jude: you back.

You know what it was good to be back.

I apologize for missing last week.

Um, I don't mind sharing this, you know,
in fact, I didn't go to work today.

Well, the last Friday we went to record
and right as we're getting started

recording, I just had this massive
headache and I ended up having to go to

a care now, urgent care or see, you know,
some kind of a quick thing like that.

Um, cause we've been tracking my blood
pressure and it's not been good, uh,

just to put it that way and it just had a
massive headache and I just, I had to go.

Um, and, and you know, it's weird.

I feel bad missing work today.

Cause it was just like, I just
couldn't sleep last night.

Um, because I had such a bad headache,
you know, in my oldest was like, I get

headaches and you make me go to school
and I'm like, look, I've gone to a

school or slash work every day with the.

And I just couldn't today, like until
this blood pressure gets under control,

like I just have this perpetual like
headache and, um, I, I say perpetual,

like, I don't have one right.

This moment.

Uh, but also taking Tylenol
before we started recording.

And so, yeah.

So I apologize about missing a loved
listening, cause I always excited

to be on that end when it does
happen, uh, to get to hear what the

pods going to be like that knowing.

So, yeah.


Trey: I'm glad to hear, you
know, you are taking time to

take care of yourself and a.

And again, like I said,
I'm glad to hear you back.

Cause I mean, being in that moment, it was
like, oh, this went from like, we're going

to record to like, oh no, go get that
taken care of this doesn't matter anymore.


Jude: Like we were set up and it
was just like, I can't do this.

Like, oh.

And, and you know, what else is
funny is I've been going around and

I know this isn't something to brag
about, but I'm going around bragging

about blood pressure medicine.

The first day I took it, I would go,
I go, I go up to my, to my friends who

were like my age, a little bit older.

And I was like, dude, in stages
of getting old, I just leveled up.

I'm on blood pressure medicine now.

And they're all like welcome to the club.

I was like, I know, right.

Oh, like give me another 10 to 15 years.

And I'm going to go from like having
that little plastic thing where Monday

through Friday for my pills and going
from having one to both an am and a PM.


So I have, I have that next
level to look forward to.



Trey: is, that is really funny,
especially cause I remember you

like haunting me when I turned 30.

You're like, all right, just wait.

You're going to start to feel it.

You're not gonna be able to stay
up as late as you used to, you

know, whenever you drink, you're
going to feel it a lot harder.

The next day I turned
30, my knee exploded.

I turned 31 and now I can't see anymore.

And that needs class.

Jude: I tell you what my 40th
birthday went to the ER and had a

two night, three day hospital stay.

Then I had to go back in March for sure.

Major surgery.

Like I immediately started falling apart.

Um, and thirties and especially mid
thirties is that time when like, You start

waking up in the morning, was that hung
over feeling without actually drinking.

You just stayed up too late.

So it happens to all of us at some point.

Trey: Well, it started to
sound like we need a doctor.


Jude: a Hey right.

I go see my doctor.

Trey: Maybe one of the mystical arts
can be the one we're looking for.


Jude: go find the ancient one,

Trey: give you download this
episode, then, you know, we're

going to be discussing Dr.

Strange from 2016.

So the way we're going to do this is
we're going to break this down into a

three act structure and that'll give us
the opportunity to bounce around while

sticking within a certain section of the
movie as we give our retrospective review.

So starting with this first act, uh, we're
going to be starting from the beginning

of the movie all the way through Dr.

Strange training at karma Taj.

So starting with.


Where do you want to start with act one?

I want

Jude: to start with the car wreck.


Um, and the only reason why is that?

I remember when I first saw this,
like in the theater and then getting

out, uh, well going in, I thought,
okay, this is going to be difficult.

Uh, origin story set up
of like, he's a surgeon.

He can't do that anymore.

Cause of the damage to
his hands, you know?

And like, how do you get
people to relate to that?

You know, that, that puts
them on that journey.

You know, like, like stereotypically,
uncle Ben and Martha.

It's like you lost a parent and we can
kinda, even if you haven't lost a parent,

yet you can relate to like the grief
that puts you down this road, you know?

And here it's like, you, you
just can't use your hands.

Like he used to let you,
you know what I mean?


Trey: it's not even that so much as
like how much of a jerky was it wasn't

even that he couldn't use his hands.

You can find sympathy.

There is that even after being
humbled, he was still a complete

Jude: jerk.


And, and so in that sense, like I
remember leaving the theater and

I still think that's what I do.

These rewatch is just how well they
did the origin story, like and how

well they were able to make that work.

Um, and I, I think that's attribute
to, you know, Scott Derrickson as

a director and Benedict Cumberbatch
as an actor to like, make that work.

Trey: Yeah.

I think I texted him.

After I had finished my watch,
where I was just like, I think this

first act is perfect and I don't,
I didn't think he responded to it.

So like, I think you were waiting
for it here on the podcast, but man,

I, I cannot I'm right behind you.

It is.

It is so good.

It's so well done.

Uh, to speak a little bit more
about this scene in particular

that you're starting with.

I remember when we did our
vicarious viewing with Katie

Peters, for those who don't know,
that was our first guest episode.

And I think that was something she
brought up was just how difficult it

was to get behind a character like
this, because it is something that they

really hammer home, but it wasn't until
sitting down to write notes that it's,

I was able to kind of put into words.

It's not that it's hard to feel
sorry for his actions because he

deserves, well, maybe not the car
wreck, but he deserves like the.


He gets from other people as he's
looking for help after the fact.

But what you actually feel sorry for
is that he can't see past himself.

Like there's, there's, there's this
pity for him in a way that he is

his own problem and he can't even
see it because of the pedestal.

He's put himself on,

Jude: you get the ego problem, okay.

In such a jerk and they sell
it well, but you also get that

identity of, well, put it this way.

There's not a strong sense of who
he is outside of being this surgeon.


Like if I don't have this, who am I is?

And so many of us, you know, daily lives,
if you stop and think about that question,

what is, who am I, what does it mean to
be me and what makes up that identity?

And if you're so wrapped up into identity
is your job or insert whatever it is.

And you see this with athletes, when they
struggle over tiring, like I spent so much

of my life being a ballplayer, whatever
that is, what does that mean for me now?

And what do I do once I'm done?

And it makes it hard
for them to walk away.

And so I think that's
another part of it, right?

Like that self-absorbed and ego is also
the problem, you know, a problem in that.

He can only be him if he's
able to do this job and doesn't

know how to do anything else.

Um, which is, that's a huge

Trey: problem.

So I'm going to respond to that and
use that to transition into another

section that I want to talk about.

But speaking of what you said,
like it mean he is defined by his

work, like so much of what he does.

Like I think I finally put it
into words at the beginning.

He is somebody who does good
things for the wrong reasons.

Like he is a brilliant surgeon,
he saves lives, but the way

that he goes about doing it.

Uh, you have that scene right before
the car wreck, where he is being given

potential candidates for surgery.

And he's being as cows is like, oh no,
I don't want to ruin my perfect record.

Like, oh, you want me to
have them die on the table?

Like they were just accolades
waiting to happen for them.

Um, another thing that, that stood out
to me in this watch is at the beginning,

when he does save that life of Christine's
patient, there's a very brief moment

where he goes to meet with the family.

And they're all very thankful
about the success of the surgery.

And one of the family members goes to
hug Christine and she embraces it and

another one goes to hug strange, and
he kind of gives like the side hug.

So like even internally, he cannot
accept the, the care of others

because that's not what it is for him.

It's more about the, the ego,
like you said, I guess that's

what that's, where I'll keep that.

Jude: And when you gotta say he only
did it as well, just to show up.


Trey: 100%.

It's so that's, that's kind of going
back to where I wanted to transition.

It's just like how, cause you said they
don't really set anything up for strange

outside of how he is with work, man.

It is brilliant the way they have
them incredibly relaxed while in

such a tense situation situation
where he's operating on that patient.

And he's sitting there bopping along
to the song, doing trivia he's dancing

for, it's just a very slow motion
back and forth, and it shows the kind

of person he is that he's incredibly
skilled and confident in these intense

situations, which, uh, I, I really
appreciated about that opening.


And it gave you a sense of, to like, I
mean, he's a very smart person like this,

just having all that trivia on hand and
being able to get into the minutia of

the details was, was really entertaining.

I mean, he knew about

Jude: the frugal horn.


Oh, ma'am.

Trey: And, you know, you, you
already mentioned the hands.

I think one of the things that worked so
well about this first act is the hands

really are its own little micro story
within the, within the movie itself.

But specifically in that first part
of the movie, because we see the first

opening shot is well, not the first
opening shot because we have that section

with, uh, Cassius and the ancient one.

But once we transitioned over to strange,
it's a focus shot of him just sterilizing

his hands and cleaning and just
showing like the beginning of his act.

And by the time we get towards
the end, as he's really starting

to bark on this journey, we get
another shot of him trying to shave.

And his hands are just shaking because
he can no longer do the everyday tasks.

So it is a good anchor visually for what
they're doing, uh, with the narrative.

Jude: Well, and I'd say that
scene where he's trying to run.

And you just trying to write his name
over and over again and couldn't do it.


Well, let's take it a step further,
you know, not to get out of this

act, but if you think about the
hands as its own story, and you

think about what he does as Dr.

Strange throughout the movie, so much
of what he does requires his hands, the

way he holds his fingers, you know, to
open the little portal, the way he held

his fingers to get the to open up, it's
all comes out of his hands, you know?

So it's like, he's getting this
use of hands back throughout here.

So, so I like that you put it in, like
they have their own little narrative, so

Trey: I totally get what you mean about
how he's using his hands in a way that is.

His interpretation of the mystical arts,
but I do want to make sure we are clear.

We understand that, you know, the ancient
one makes that point about how it's

not in the hands when she demonstrates
how master Famir is able to control

the magic while having a missing hand.

But I know, I know what you're
saying is it means to his

story that they're telling.

Jude: Right.


But I think, I mean, I want to
add to that and say, it just shows

so much of this movie is in this
mystical and it shows how much Steven

is into this physicality, right?

Like, oh, this mumbo jumbo and the
mystical stuff and my hands, I work with

my hands and how important that is to him.

I think having Amir not have a hand
is also a good reinforcement of.

There is something beyond the
physical that's that's taking place,

Trey: you know, while we're still kind
of here at this beginning, part of the

movie, I do want to take some time to
highlight that conversation that strange

and Christine have, as they're discussing
the, uh, the, the strange policy

where she no longer dates coworkers.

Uh, I like the quick insight that we
get into their personalities, because

we've already clearly established how
egotistical and vein Stranges, but

the plea that, that Christine gives
to like, Hey, you know, why don't

you come down and work in the ER with
me and, you know, help save lives.

And strangers just immediately like
put off by the idea of doing that

because in his mind, the work that
he's doing can save a thousand lives,

but it, it, it comes off to Christine
is like, oh, you're just doing it

for the vanity project kind of thing.

So you can see, see where both
their, their philosophies is

just in that conversation.

And she, and just to put a point
on it, she has that awesome line

where it really gives us the, the
compass for where we're going to go.

Or she goes, Steven, everything is about

Jude: you.

Well, and that's, and that's what I
was always going to say is like for

Christine is definitely, I think Christine
would agree you're saving lives and.

It's not immediate in front of you.

It is down the line, right?

Cause you're doing research and
experimental stuff that maybe

one day is no longer experimental
fine, but that's about.

You know, and Christine
is very person oriented.

I'm doing this to help others.

Um, and strangers, clearly
I'm helping myself,

Trey: which I'm going to, I'm going
to jump ahead because still within

this act, but man, it is such great
dramatic irony that after the car wreck

and strange wakes up in the hospital
and he sees his hands kind of posted

up on that, that all that metal wire
and post-surgery and the stitches.

And he's just looking at it and
dismay and asking, what did you do?

And Christine was just trying to reassure
him that like, nobody could do better.

And he goes, I could, it's so beautifully
tragic that the one person that could

help him is himself, but that's the,
he can't physically, and that's an

stranger's entire art for this movie.

And I love that.

They took the time to set that up.

Jude: I'm going to, I'm going to use
this and, and let me know if it doesn't

make sense in terms of analogy wise.

So like one of the classes I teach
is, is very much, I mean, it's

about relationships and, and stuff.

And, and I know one of the things
I ended up bringing up and even

for me being married, one of the
things we ended up talking about is

that trust between people, right?

You and I, as a partnership
on this podcast, right.

Um, or for my wife and I, and
the trust we have in each other.

And, you know, I bring up with
the students and I get into this.

Like, if something happens to me,
whether it's by accident or let's

say I'm having a surgery, it didn't
happen on this most recent surgery.

You know, that I mentioned
earlier about falling apart,

but it, but it could, right.

Like something unexpected happens and
the doctor has to go ask while I'm under.


And I trust and have a confidence
that my wife is going to do and make

the best decision for me and for us.


And, and vice versa.

And so what I awake, even if it's
probably, let's just say for argument's

sake, like it's not something
I actually would have chosen.

I would have went the other.


I'm not going to be mad because that's
part of that relationship of our marriage

of saying I'm putting my, my life in your
hands willingly, and I'm going to trust

that you are doing what's best for me.


And strange doesn't, you know, and, and
still like with the doctor, like I'm

under, I'm trusting you to do what's
best for me and your expertise, you know?

And like strange is incapable of that.

Whether it's him and Christine as
a relationship or just him as a

patient and the UN and another doctor.

And that's one of the things I just, I
find fascinating about strange is because

there's so many times in life in general,
whether it's a relationship that you

actually have, or just a relationship
that you come across momentarily.

Where it's like, you have to assume
Goodwill on somebody or not on

somebody, but from somebody that
they're making the best choices

that they're capable of making and,
and realize you're okay with that.


It's out of your hands.

Um, and I don't mean that as a pond
or just, you know, and, and, and

strange is completely incapable of

Trey: man.

I love that.

Cause I mean, like I said, I was already
focusing on the hands and the use of

the story, but I, I didn't even put
it in that, like putting your trust in

somebody else's hands kind of situation
like that, but yeah, you're right.

Like that is something that strange,
completely lacks and it all stems

from that egotistical view that
he has, because skip to that scene

where he's in rehab and he refers to
the person that's working with them

as like, alright, bachelor degree.

I was like my gut.

Like he cannot see beyond the
comparison of himself to others.

Like that is the only value he
has for somebody that is not him.

And so it is torture.

Um, and again, great dramatic irony
that like, he thinks he could have done

it, but he, he physically could not.

Um, and I liked the way
you have outlined that.

Yeah, and I, and I think it works hand in
hand, that is definitely an intended pun.

It works hand in hand with the on-ramping
of the mystical nature of this film,

because we spend so much time with
this person, whether you relate to

stranger, not which I can't imagine.

You can at least be sympathetic to
strange in this, uh, beginning act.

Uh, the fact that he's so
grounded in skepticism is what's

going to pave the way for us to.

Get to the mystic arts.

So once we get into the later acts of
this movie are later time of this movie,

I should say, but I wanted to bounce
off what you were saying about that.

The, was it, what did you say, kindness?

What was, what was the
word she used earlier?

It slipped my mind of others.

Jude: Uh, oh, assume
Goodwill on their part.


Trey: Goodwill.

Yeah, Goodwill.

So I want to switch to that scene with
Pangborn, who I think I have created

a new found level of appreciation
during this session of note-taking

Pangborn, I think is such a crucial
moment in this movie because not

only is the framing of the shot.

Good, where after strange has
been humbled and is coming to.

A complete stranger on his part for help.

You see him as he's behind the
fence, almost in like this cage,

like structure, and he's asking
this guy for help, like for

clarification of how he can get better.

And it is not until Pangborn shows
empathy because he has no onus to

give any sort of time of data strange.

But because he takes the time
to say like, this is what I did.

This is how it can work.

Only then is strange, able to step
outside from the office station of

the gates and have a face-to-face
communication with Pangborn.

And like I said, penguin didn't have to do
that, but because he took the time to show

that empathy and kindness, that is what
sets strange on his path towards good.

And I, I loved it.

It was just so visually narratively rich.

Jude: Oh yeah.

I'm just going to add to it on there.

It's like even when a stranger
behind the fence, it's all focused on

strange and the fence, like you can't,
there's nothing going on in the back.

So he is really boxed in, whereas you can
still see behind Pangborn, like he's on

the outside of that because you still see
them playing basketball in the background.

So there's like life in
the frame behind Pangborn.

So it, it really gives that
feeling of like, like you said,

strangers in this cage, you know,
cause there's nothing going on.

It's just him.

Uh, yeah.

So you're right.

It was, that was fantastic.

Uh, blocking and framing and, and,
and use of environment to, to, to.

Create that, that feeling and push the

Trey: well you're making me even realize
too, like you framed it as there's life

in the background with pink board side,
that life has calling back to them.

They're like, Hey, come
on, get back to the game.

And he is taking time out of his day
to show kindness to a strange, so,

uh, kudos to Benjamin Bratt because
I really hope we see some of him in

multi-verse of madness, because I think
he's a much more important character

than I originally gave him credit for.

Jude: Oh yeah.


And he's a big enough name that he.

You bring him back at some
point, somehow it would be,

Trey: it would be an a, I don't want
to say a let down of a cliffhanger,

but man, that would be interesting.

If the post credit scene features
so much of him having his magic

taken away, we never see him again.


Given what we know of
multi-verse I don't know where

Jude: you fit them in.

I don't, I don't know.

I don't know the Illuminati, maybe.

Trey: So I do want to say this
before we exit the Pangborn section.

You know, I I've, I can't remember
when I brought this up, but I talked

about in the books on storytelling that
I've read, there's this idea that you

differentiate between what the mind
wants, which is kind of the external goal

of a main character and what they think
they're searching for versus what the

heart wants, which is what they actually
need to complete their story circle and

become a better person on the other side.

And so what I love about Pangborn here
is Pang Moore talks about going to

karma Taj and learning the magic that
it takes to be able to walk again.

And he even admits, I knew there
was more to learn, but I was

satisfied on my journey, whereas.

We know this is the start of strangers
journey with his mind once is the

ability to use his hands again.

But what we are finding out in this
moment, which I think we won't know

until the end, but what is great about
Pangborn is that laying the groundwork of

knowing there's more to be learned, like
there's vast knowledge in the multi-verse

that that's what strange actually
needs to learn on the inside is that

responsibility of knowledge that he has
not shown at the beginning of this movie.

So even though strange things seasoned
barking on fixing his hands, he's really

on that path towards being humbled by the

Jude: multi-verse.



That's that's really well put.


Do you mind if I shift gears for a second?

Yeah, go ahead.

Shift away.

You mentioned something about
this on-ramp and I forgot it.

I know you said on ramp and I
forget now it escapes me what

the context contextual, the, the

Trey: unwrapping of the
fantastical by using skepticism.

Jude: We talked about this when
Katie was on this movie is a good

feels like, and I think it is a good
on-ramp to the MCU, just in general,

if you've never seen anything.

And I do like the way they started
by giving you a taste of what's

the Cub and that initial fight.

So they kind of tease like, what's, you're
going to see on a small scale with the

buildings and stuff, and you're just
like, oh man, this is going to be wild.

And so like, and what made me think of
it as using the word on-ramp cause it

is, you know, I think, I, I think even
in that episode, uh, you know, we, maybe

we should put a link in the show notes
to, to that episode, if anybody wants to

go back and see that or listen to that.

Um, cause Katie Peters, her whole thing
is, you know, going and watching movies.

She's never seen before and
just giving her impressions.

Um, and she came on with
us to, to talk about Dr.


And she mentioned like, yeah,
this would be a good on-ramp to

the MCU for someone that who's
never seen any MCU movie before.


Trey: so yeah, it's an, I listened to
the director's commentary for this one

with Scott Derrickson and he talked
about something that I've never thought

about before, but it's kind of made
me appreciate what this movie does.

He said whenever they were like doing
test screenings, he came to realize

audiences want to learn about the.

But there's only so much you can take
within a movie before you're like,

all right, you're, overexplaining it.

And so I just want to highlight what
you're saying about how they tease that

out at the beginning of like, wow, this
is what's to come, but then they shift

gears and it is a drama for like the first
40 minutes, maybe an hour of this movie.

It is a pure drama.

Uh, and I think that leads into one of
my favorite scenes, maybe in the MCU.

And I, I got to walk through this
carefully because it feels weird to like,

say, Hey, this scene were strangers,
just verbally abusing somebody is one

of my favorite scenes, but that scene
where him and Christine are fighting.

Um, I am a star.

For somebody who is talking down, like
just out of pure visceral, anger and hurt.

And in their mind, they think
they're really, you know, showing

the other person how wrong they are.

But in reality, what you're
seeing is how broken they are.

And I think the reflection of
that is through Christine, who has

that strength to walk away from
that moment, because it's hard.

Like she clearly cares about strange.

She wants to help them.

And she's gotten to this point where
she's like, no, And that takes incredible

strength and it shows how small of
a person strange is and all that is

emphasized by the, the excellent acting on
Rachel McAdams and Benedict Cumberbatch.

But, uh, yeah, that, uh, that entire
scene just hits hard every time.

Oh, I

Jude: love her, her first line.

It wasn't like a, she didn't yell back.

So there was no defending myself.

It was just straight up.


Now's the part you apologize.

And this is the part where you leave,
you know, it was just like, I'm not just

like, I'm not accepting it, you know?

Um, but even there, when strange said,
no, this is the part where you leave

or, you know, something to that effect.

You still get the feeling
that, or at least I do that.

Christine left on her own terms.

Not because strange setup.

Like it was still, no, this is my choice.

I'm walking away from you.

Um, and so I love how that, that scene
played out and in that way, you know?

Well, and it goes to show again, someone
who in Christine has that strong ego,

that strong sense of self, or when I say
strong ego, let's make sure I'm clear.

So think, think ego sense of self,
and you can have an overinflated or

big ego, which is actually not a good
sense of self, like strange has, right?

Because what ends up happening is you
have this over-inflated or big ego.

So the foundation of that ego
sense of self is not solid.

And once we see what strange it's taken
away and you're falling apart, whereas

when you have that strong, a strong
ego, a good, strong sense of self.

When people treat you the way strange
was you're able to look at it and be

like, okay, now you open your apology.

No, and this, and you're
like, fine, I'm gone.

And it remains Christine's
choice to walk away, you know?

And she had control it.

Did it hurt?


Because there's that relationship that you
clearly cares about strange, but it's one

of those things where you see, and again,
to Rachel McAdams acting, it's like the

hurt is because I'm seeing my friend act
this way and I can no longer be a part of.

It's not a hurt because of what
you necessarily said to me.

So that's, I love it.

Trey: It goes back to what I was saying
at the car wreck, the, the feeling sorry,

is not for what happens to strange.

It's the pity that he cannot see
himself and what he's become, and

we achieve and highlights is like,
you know, you always spent money as

quick as you got it, but now you're
spending more than you can make.

And she's just trying to plead to
him to like, you know, snap out

Jude: of this, right.

This is not medicine it's madness.

Trey: Oh yeah.

That, that is a wonderful way to put that.

I like that a lot.


You know, we already talked about how he
meets up with paying borne, which is what

sets him out on this track to Carmen Taj.

I think we can kind of shift gears
here to that scene where he has the

meeting with the ancient one and kind
of fumbles his way through sincerity

as he is guided through with Mordo.

And man, like, this is, this is what I
was setting up about the on-ramp to the

fantastical, this scene alone, like in
a vacuum, the scene where the ancient

one, like presses his forehead and shows
him the vastness of the multi-verse.

And has that wonderful line of like, who
are you strange in this vast multi-verse.

It is beautiful.

Like it is such a wonderful scene.

It's so imaginative and almost
haunting in some aspects with

all the hands crawling around.

And it just really shows the scale at
which this journey is about to take

us and all that works on a vacuum.

But why it really hits hard is
because of, like I said, that, that

skepticism, and it ends with trainers
being like, teach me, like he has

finally been won over kind of thing.

Jude: Well, and I also, I think
when you think about this scene and

what you said, uh, Derrickson said
in the, in the commentary, right?

So you it's like, we'll give you a little
tease then we're just going to like turn

on the fire hose and just overwhelm you
and you're coming out like strange of

like what, and then it was in that tea.


And so like, and you
know, he's like teach me.

And then from there.

You're right.

They don't really explain the
magic in any kind of detail,

strangest, slowly learning.

And you're learning with them, but
it's not like a detail of like, oh,

this is where the magic comes from.

It's just, there's magic
and other dimensions.

And you're learning how to use it.

And in not overexplaining the detail,
there leaves some of that mystical

and that mystery there, that's still
something that's to be discovered and

slowly being, you know, discoverable.

If that makes sense.


Trey: I was going to say 100% makes sense
because that's one of the things that

Derrickson says in the commentary is
by definition, magic is the unknowable

there's there's mystery to it.

There's a looseness to it.

And if you get too much into the
details, it's not magic anymore.

It's science.

Jude: Yeah.

So one of the things like, so
let me, let me put it this way.

One of the things, um, I'm taking a
class right now and it's, it's no secret.

Like I put it on my Twitter.

I talk about, you know, my theology
background and being Catholic.


Um, I'm taking a class right now
apart of professional development, um,

online class on mystery and creation.

And one of these books I'm reading and
I'm only bringing this up cause cause you,

cause I think Derek is right of like this
whole science and you need this mystery.

Um, so bear with me, I guess it's
feels like a tangent, but I'm kind

of in a circular way making a point.

Um, but like mystery in this,
as I say this, I understand that

even among other Catholics, like
this could be slightly debate.

So it's not like I'm giving
like hardcore official that I

just make that clear as well.

But mystery in a Catholic sense
is going to be con you know, we

can think of it in four ways.

Uh, concealment revelation of God's
saving activity, uh, ritual participation

and connection to the sacrament and
all that last one would mean would

be participation in like our, our,
our recognizing the created world as

something that is discoverable and
something that is to be an awe of.


But that first one that concealment
the, you know, this, this

intentional hiding, you know, um,
that makes, that makes a journey.

Now something about, um, discoverability,
something that makes, um, well, I mean,

to use this analogy, it's like, once
you play maybe a video game, or once

you do something and you know all about
it, it's like, you know, or like you've

mentioned it, what captain America,
civil war it's like, it takes something

to renew that energy of the first time.


Um, I like that, oh, this is cool moment.

And so that idea of concealment in
terms of like, you know, God and mystery

creation and this Catholic sense is
that the journey of discovering this

and because it's not all laid out,
um, and this movie, I'm not saying

this movie is Catholic per se at any
means, but it very much rides in that.


If like I would argue for
as much as we've seen Dr.

Strange going into multi-verse Magnus,
there's still not a lot of extra, like.

You know.

Um, and so in, in that sense, it's like,
I just, I just love the, the way they

were able just to say, no, we're just
going to trust the audience to buy in.

I don't have to.

And I think this is the first
Marvel movie that's done this, you

know, cause you go back to Thor and
it's like, oh man, it's not magic.

It's just science.

You haven't discovered yet.

And so it, so it plays off all
this fantastical as like, oh, it's

scientifically like you can observe it
and have an explanation is practical.

And this is the first one
that's actually leaned into some

idea of mystical and mystery.

Um, and that's something I
really loved and appreciated.


Trey: I want to circle back to
what you were saying about how.

We spend the rest of the movie
going on that journey with strange

as he's learning the, the arts,
the mystic arts, like I know Dr.

Strange is not the first movie
to pair an education system

as a way for both audience and
protagonists to learn together.

But it's just so well done here
within this use of the magic system.

And I love again, if it's almost,
we talked about this whenever we

did the, what if episode of Dr.

Strange and I pointed out how for strange.

It's almost as if knowledge
is a vice for him.

Like the idea of him being in that
library of Cagliari Astro and having

infinite knowledge, like knowing
who he is as a character and in

what he goes to do in that, what if
episode he will be consumed by it.

So I, I love that line that the, I believe
it is the H one she has where it's,

you know, you cannot beat a river into
submission, you must surrender to it.

So it's almost like training
strange, like, yes, there

is this river of knowledge.

It expands beyond your imagination,
but it is not your job to control it.

It is your job to, like
she said, surrender to it.

And so it's such a, it's such a great
comparison to what his own journey is

because it's not until he's able to
surrender to his like ego and let that go.

That he's able to control both his
ordinary life and the fantastical life.

So I love the, the great job
that they're doing with that.

They're marrying both the narrative
of the story and the plot.

I think that's a
distinction you made once.

Jude: Yeah.

Well, and if you, you know, if you think
about what you just said about what

the bringing out that line about the
river and surrendering to it and, uh,

and you can't beat it to submission,
that's, there's a lot of Buddhist.

Um, you could probably say Hinduism as
well, but definitely a lot of Buddhist.

I mean, cause they are so intertwined.

Um, and in, in terms of Lisa by
basic framework that, but yeah,

there's a lot of Buddhist tendencies
in there as well in terms of this.

You know, um, all life is
suffering thinking of like

the four noble truths, right.

And the eightfold path.

And you get like, all life is suffering,
um, desires as cause of suffering.

And you have to, to realize that, um, and
a lot of where people end up getting some

things confused with Buddhism, especially
on a surface level, is this idea of

like, oh, so I don't have to desire.

And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

That's not what it wants.

They, they actually want this,
what they call this middle way.

Um, which is, which is this middle
ground and, and it's, and it's,

again, this is where you see the
Hindu roots of its desire is okay.

But I am outgrowing the desire, right?

Like, cause I realize that this.

Isn't satisfying, right?

Like, like pleasure, desire for pleasure.

Isn't satisfying.


So I want worldly desires, meaning
like job and rich and all that stuff.

And you realize, okay, that's
not satisfying, you know?

And so you move beyond
that and eventually.

You know that it's not that a
desire is bad, but you have a

healthy balance of desire, you know?

And, and as part of that in
Buddhist terms, you know, reaching

enlightenment, um, or Nirvana, right.

And escaping, achieving, I
think it's what Moshe are just

escaping seminars and life cycle.

Um, all this is on my mind because
I'm doing an inter religious

dialogue class this semester, but

Trey: well, I'm happy you're
lending the, uh, the knowledge here

Jude: to, you know, uh, go
read Siddhartha by Herman Hesse

and anyways, a fantastic book.

But yeah, it's like, it's, uh, But
you hear, you see all those tendencies

there and which I think is fascinating.

So there's one thing I, I do
want to mention, cause I really

like, uh, what they did on this.

Um, and, and also to give
me a little background.

So like I did go, you know, my bachelor's
is in radio television, film inside.

Do you have this passion for media?

Um, and you know, professionally, I
don't outside, I guess the pod, but

we're not getting paid right now.

So it's not professional.

I don't actually, you
know, well, I love it.

And I think about it and
critical and, and stuff.

But one of the, one of my professors, the
very, the, the thing that they really are.


I think they would be
appropriate right now.

Uh, they really emphasized was
this, this and the intention of.

You know, people make choices of,
and, and their, and their storytelling

and these use of stereotypes
and how they can be helpful.

Like this kind of quick shorthand
in the short, short form and

short form, meaning like a movie
versus like multiple episodes.


And that being long form.

Um, but also because of that, it lends to
subverting expectations of stereotypes.

Um, and I really liked how they did
it multiple times in this movie,

but even right here was just, he
went to the ancient one premiere

and he wasn't the ancient one.

Um, you know, and, and so like that
there, I mean, that's just one example

in the whole we've been talking about,
but there's other examples throughout

this movie where they were able to.

Show strange out of his element
as this westerner in looking for

car montage in Katmandu and show
this westerner out of his element.

Um, and, and having that Western bubble,
so to speak, you know, and I, and I

thought this show did that really well.

Trey: Yeah.

And it plays to the level of character
of strange, because mortal has that

wonderful line where I think it
was after this remark, but strange

goes, Hey, doesn't that place look
a little more calm, more Taji.

And mortal just kind of like looks at him.

And he looks at that place
and he just, it's almost like

he fought a grin and scoffed.

And he was like, you know, I stood where
you were once and showed the same level of

disrespect and it's, it is creating, like
you said, that, that bubble around him,

that you get testicle illness and creating
the, the path of growth he still has

because you have more to who is admitting,
like he was there too at that point.

Jude: Yeah.

Now I, I do want to mention like
outside of that's all within film,

but then in the film and outside
of that, there's been conversations

about white washing and hiring, uh,
Tilda Swinton to play the ancient one.

Um, first I, I think Tilda
Swinton did a fantastic job.

She's a fantastic and what she does,
um, you know, and there's that element

of the mindfulness of representation.

Um, and, and the problem we've had, um,
you know, and so I, you can't bring up

the use of subverting stereotypes and
ignorance, and I don't, at least, I don't

think, and then kind of ignore this.

I do want to mention that.

Um, but in terms of just like watching
the movie and getting submersed into

it, it, in terms of like strange
as experience as an egotistical

outsider, The things they did.

You mentioned about karma Taji.

I mentioned this, but even the one
where he's like, is this my mantra?

And he's like, oh, this
is just the wifi password.

We're not savages, you know?

Um, and so it really, you know, makes him
pun intended a stranger to this world.

My turn for ponds, buddy.


But he makes him an outsider
or a stranger to this world.

Trey: Uh, one of the things I don't
think we've set up so far in this

first act is the use of the watch.

And it goes on to be a very pivotal
moment towards the end of the movie.

But we learned that that watch
is a gift from Christine.

And so.

You speak so much about how it really,
as your pun goes, puts him as this

stranger after he is finally surrendering
to, to the, the river of his ego.

One of the last things we see him do
is take that watch and set it aside.

So it's a, it's almost signaling.

He has fully given up the essence
of his past the in trying to

embrace this new lifestyle and.

You know, I, I like that by the I'll
just say it, this is kind of getting

to the end of the act of that.

We have broke it down, but you start
to see where strange has gotten to

the point where he's confident enough
to create portals and go and steal

books from the library out from Wong.

And it is so wonderful.

This is what I, this is the moment
where I was like, man, this is a perfect

first act because if an act is a smaller
story within your larger story, the

fact that he goes from this massive.

Injury that takes away his identity
and then gets to the point where

he has mastered the mystic arts and
now has the ability to heal himself.

But for whatever reason, he is still
going for something more he has

mastered with the mind wanted, but
he can still internally feel that

there's something that the heart needs.

And this is a wonderful time
to start introducing conflict,

which is what this movie does.

Jude: I want to say one
more thing about the watch.

Um, and then we'll leave a pin on it.


Which is, you said he, he sets it down.

Well, he fought to get it back.

That was what was stolen
and it was a broken watch.


Um, you know, the shattered glass and,
and, you know, because it clearly was

important to them, but also at the very
beginning, you know, he's getting dressed

for his outing and you open it up and
he has all these fancy watches that

he's choosing from, uh, When he does
step in to do the surgery for Christine,

he, he asks, um, oh, what is it doctor?

Uh, Nick, right.

Nick west nicotine.

So yeah, he's standing there
and he's like, Hey, Dr.

West, please cover your watch.


And it was complete silence
and all you get is the ticking.

And he's like, uh, you know, and so
there's this element of like, strange is

so in control or egotistical, strangest.

So in control of everything, um, even
time, if that makes sense, right?

Like he's just him, you know?

Um, and, and nothing else exists.

Um, you know, so, so the idea there,
like you were just mentioning,

he sets it down and side is part
of that step of like growth.

Um, and then.

Let's put a pin on it
until we get to the left.

Trey: Okay.

There's one last thing I'm going to
highlight because it just occurred to me.

We haven't set it up.

Despite there, there will be
more scenes with them, but we

really need to set it up here.

I love the meaning of Wong.

I mean, even, even just taking a moment to
appreciate where he starts in this movie,

which is already a great start to where
he ends up with what we see happening

in the multi-verse of man, his trailer.

He has been on such an
awesome path as a character.

And I believe it's in this first act.

I love that moment where strangers
trying to bond with them and he's

cracking jokes and he's like, man,
I'm, I'm used to people laughing at

my jokes and Wong just so quickly.

Did they work for you in the streets?

Just walks away.

So yeah, long, long as I think
I'm starting to appreciate how

much Wong is becoming one of my
favorite characters in the MC.

Jude: Funny to an empty room.

Trey: Well, that's a secret.

We got to start paying
people to come laugh.

Jude: So we mentioned in one episode
about dropping things we want to leave

behind and, you know, I'm mentioning
it now only for context of like, I'm

leaving the truck behind in the last year.

And we're finding are a new
thing for the next year.

I feel like funny room is going
to be that thing that come 20, 23.

It's like, okay, we're going to
leave that and find something else.

Trey: We were going to beat
something to death every year.

And the empty room was definitely

Jude: right.

And then it's just going to be
like, okay, we'll leave it behind.

Oh, well, one last thing.

Why don't we move?

We can move on when you say.

Like the group texts we have with, uh, TK.

Um, first time that came out, she
texted to that a hashtag funny to

Trey: watch that be the thing
that gets going for us engaging.

Jude: Oh,

Trey: well, you know what, I, I think
that's gonna put a ramp on the first

act and move us into the second one,
uh, which this act is going to take us

from the ancient one, explaining the
mere dimension all the way through her

demise as she falls through, uh, from
the mirror dimension into the real world.

Uh, we're going to start with me this time
and I'm actually going to skip ahead to.

The establishing
conversation between and Dr.

Strange, because I think
it's the next place to go.

Given how much work we've
talked about that was put into

strange as characterization.

And I love the way they have paved as
the road not taken for strange, I guess

you could say where he strange could so
easily fall down the same path as Cassius.

And I like, I mean, they're not subtle
about it because Cassius throws stranger's

line back at him, a tiny momentary
specks within an indifferent universe.

So you can see the same kind of hurt
that has that strange also bears.

So I love that they've
paired these two together.

Jude: Well, it's like when we
talk about what JB and villains.

You know, are they killing
off their villains?

And I mean, at this point, if you're
listening to this episode, this isn't a

spoiler about Cassius dying, but this is,

oh, this is a two-parter you
only watched the first part.


But like, this is one of those
that as much as you're like, oh,

we gotta keep Madam Mickelson
around and, you know, whatever.

And who knows when multi-verse, but
this is one where he necessarily

has to die because he is that this
is what strange could have been.

And for strange to fully overcome the
egotistical side into how full growth that

shadow self, you know, that sky Sealy is,
is representing necessarily to complete.

The story has to do.

You know, um, and again,
I'm going to stop there.

Cause third act wise, the way they
did it was actually a very clever, um,

you know, w with, with that in mind,
it was very clever of how it ended.

So, but yes, because of that, because
he leaves necessarily has to die

because it's, it's part of a strange,

Trey: you know, you're hearkening
back to that episode, we did with JB.

And you talked about the, the shadow
self, and excuse me, you excused, you

talked about the shadow self and, you
know, I mentioned how I outlined kind

of three archetypes that I enjoyed.

Uh, I think we actually get to
have those here in this movie.

I said, oftentimes the villain is
the, the lesson not learned for the

protagonists, which I think is the
case here with . And I love how that

becomes the external representation
of strange, whereas the internal and

we haven't gotten too far into it yet,
but I'll go ahead and just lay this

groundwork for when we do get to it.

But the internal problem, I like that.

They've kind of compared that with
Dormamuu of that just all consuming

entity, which can almost make comparisons
to the all-consuming appetite.

That strange has for knowledge.

So they're doing great work
here with their antagonists.

But I think where it fails for Cassius
is so much of what they've done here is

in service to strange, but they didn't
give much service to the character

himself, which is partly because of time.

Um, but man, they were so
close to having a villain.

I think I could have had as one of my top

Jude: five.



That's all I got.

I fully agree.

Trey: You know, I, I, I want to say one
more thing before we move on from this

little Castiel he has pitstop so much of
the crux of why he has gone down this path

towards awakening Dormamuu and bringing
him to earth is because he discovers

that the ancient one had been lying to
him and that she was tapping into the

dark arts to, uh, we don't know what at
this point, but to, to LinkedIn her life.

And it is a fear of his, the fear of
death and the want of immortality.

And what really sells this moment is
that as Cassius is explaining this

to strange he's crying, like he is
genuinely hurt that the trust that he

had put on the ancient one, uh, has
turned out to be portrayed in his eyes.

And I like that, that paves
away towards sympathy for him.

Jude: Well, we talked about
earlier, Strange as ego, right.

And that motivation and the R the,
the overinflated sense of self and

that motivation and, and losing it.

But what I love here is you
see, I'm going to say the

complexity of being human, right.

And so Cassius, you get
hints as to why he was there.

You don't ever actually outright know
it, but he clearly feels betrayed.


And he goes down on this path because
it's like that, that concealment, you

hid this from me and ancient ones doing
that because that's, what's best for you.


Or in terms of the intention.

And then Cassius discovers it.

And now it goes down this path.


And then it's concealed or hidden
from Mordo because of his personality.


Like this.

You know, don't mess with natural law.

Anyway, it's a misuse of the term natural
law, but I'll set that aside for a second.

That's something that
drove me up the wall.

I was like, that's not what
natural law is and means, but okay.

Anyways, but personality wise, right?

You don't mess with the order
of things, you know, and the

bill comes due and all of that.

Uh, but so ancient ones, traditions
like here, like you're not going to

understand you're, you know, they had that
conversation with strange motos rigid.

He's not going to understand, so
I'm not going to tell him, um, Dr.

Strange discovers, man.

He doesn't have a similar
reaction as the two of them.

In fact, you know, the ancient
ones, like be careful, you know,

not what you speak of and, and he
doesn't because he's referring to.

What like actions, what the ancient ones
actually doing, and doesn't know about

why the ancient ones doing this right.

And the intention.

And he gets some more clue into
it later as she's dying and

they have those conversations.

So she gets, he gets more
of that in intention.

Um, and we have strange with the growth of
intention between self and moving outward.

And so the all of that I think is,
is maybe I never say miss, but under

appreciated in this film of how
they're able to take that and show

this complexity of being human and.

What people and their character,
you know, we'll do with this type of

Trey: I'm so glad you've
set it up that way.

Not only because you've outlined the, it's
almost three branches of a story of the

actions of the ancient one and the effect
it has on Mordo and Cassius and strange.

And I think because this can
take us back to that beginning

where the second act opens up.

The ancient one, explaining what the
mere dimension is, and it is a space

for them to practice their continued
knowledge without harming the real world.

Uh, so I think that plays off what you
were saying about the intention and the,

uh, you know, protecting the others and,
and then what, what that effect has on.

And so what I love about it, one of
the first note I took is like, man,

the ancient one is a great teacher
because she recognizes that strange has

progressing faster than anticipated.

And, uh, rather than like trying to stunt
that growth by saying like, Hey, you know,

you're not supposed to be doing this.

She facilitates it in a way that it's a
safe space for them in another dimension.

Um, and so it's almost like creating
the, like you're going in deeper

rather than facing the problem
on, on the hiding the knowledge.

And that might be a stretch on my
part, but it also works as it's a place

for them to, to learn more safely.

Uh, so I like what they're doing
here with the, the mere dimension.


And, and what it says about strange is
as much as we highlighted his ego in the

first one and how so much of what is done.

Or so much of what is driving,
what he does, ease vanity.

It is so foreign to him that the real
world can not be affected in the mirror

dimension to the point where like,
after it happens, like, and I guess

anybody would, would do this, but the
fact that it's strange and we know what

path he's been on, like the, the, the
way he immediately starts testing it

by like trying to touch the person on
the outside of the mirror dimension.

I just love what that is doing
in this part of the story.

Jude: Yeah.

Well, and you have this
there's element of strain.

Trying to use the skills that
he has, but he's not prepared.

You know, he's like, we're
in the mirror to mention now.

And he's like, you idiot,
he's power powerful.

And the mirror, I mentioned,

Trey: you know, this wasn't

Jude: clever, it was suicide,
but it's like, it's like, it's,

it's it's me with computers.


I know enough how to break it.


I can make it work for,
do what I needed to do.

And if I go beyond that,
I just can break it.

I'm never going to fix it and prove
it or make it better, you know?

And the doctor granted.


And that's, and that's Dr.


He's like, I, at this point I've learned
enough that like, oh, I can look cool.

I really still don't know what I'm doing.

Trey: And again, I think that speaks to.

But what I was saying earlier
now, you know, I don't know if

you you're on the same page, so I
won't try and group you in on this,

but like that knowledge is advice.

Like he, he has this voracious appetite
for continuously learning, but he doesn't

respect the knowledge in a way that.

It is safe for other people.

And I love what they do when he's at
that point where he's messing with time

and they do it wonderfully with the
visual representation of the apple.

I think there's some illusions, you
know, the forbidden, fruit knowledge

and, and everything in that regard.

And it starts to.

Spark questions with Mordo and Wong about
how they feel, because they have seen

what happens when someone's ambition
outweighs the safeties of others.

And so that's yeah, I mean, that's
strange, right then he's, he's

not respecting what he's learning.


You know, another thing that I think
gets brought up in this second act and

something that I have found a new found
appreciation for based off a Reddit

comment, uh, it helped start getting
the gears, turning, uh, Was how, like,

it's clear as day in this, uh, in this
episode, in this movie, because it's

a plot point where his Hippocratic
oath comes into conflict with the

teachings as they start to gear them up
towards fighting in this mystical war.

Um, it's because it's so weird.


Strange has appeared in so many
Marvel movies at this point, but

he's only had the one solo film.

And so this was a small, not,
I don't want to say small.

This was a part of the movie I personally
forgot of the way that Hippocratic

oath came into conflict, uh, with.

His new role.

And I think it's something that lasts
a lot longer than I give credit for.

Uh, because if you think about the way
he handles a lot of conflicts, uh, it

seems to be in not necessarily a peaceful
resolution, but a non-lethal resolution.

Uh, and I think that's something
that starts here and carries forward.

Well, I'd

Jude: also argue it's important that he
brings that up as part of his growth,

uh, cause we talked about right.

Like, no, I'm not going to work in
your butcher shop, save one person,

you know, like that doesn't feel
like you're honoring the Hippocratic

oath and they're like, this is the
patient in front of you, you know?

Um, kind of thing.

Like I'm gonna work on this as the
patient cause I have the skill, you know,

and I'm not going to bring any home.

That wasn't really had that it
wasn't as mindset, you know?

Um, uh, it wasn't an
apparent type mindset.

Well, as you mentioned, right?

Like he wasn't willing to work on a
patient because it would mess up his

record, uh, to now you get to this
point where it's like, especially when

you have the knowledge of like, you're
is probably his best chance, but you

take your perfect record over the best
chance to be able the one to help them.

And so to, to now come to a place
where it's like, hold on, I have

an oath to help and not do harm.

And I just violated that even
when you can make an argument

that that was self-defense.

Um, and he wasn't in the wrong.

So that is very much a moment
of this, this character

growth and stepping away from.

The self-centered the ego,

Trey: you know, it feels like, and this
is something that we'll all, we'll always

butt heads with when it comes to superhero
stories, but it's reminding me of

conversations we had about Daredevil and
the, you know, the questions we had with.

Matt says he has this no kill rule, but
what level of culpability does he have

when he pushes somebody off the top of a
building and they land in like a trashcan

four stories below and it's, it's, you're
making me think now it's like, okay.

Yes, this, the Hippocratic oath is
something that's important to them.

And I like how you've detailed it as
growth, but it almost starts to get

into strangest psyche where yes, he
has this, this honor to do no harm,

but in his mind, as long as he does not
embark on the beginning of that patient,

then it's not tarnishing his record.

So this is just me speaking out
loud to appreciate what you have

given me to, to, to on here.

Jude: But no, it's, it's, it's a, it's a
good question, you know, to think about

in that sense and you bring up Daredevil.

Yeah, you didn't kill him.

Didn't help him for sure.

He's never going to be the same
for the rest of his life ever.

And he might die from the
injuries, but it wasn't immediate.

So like dying from injuries three
days later, we give you a pass.

You know what I mean?

It's uh, I mean, in pure real-world
legal terms, the answer's no,


Like, I mean, that's honestly
the difference between

attempted murder and murder.

You know, again, without being a lawyer
in and really diving into the minutia,

you know, like it's, that's what it is.


Um, you know, to a certain degree.

So it it's, it's one of those things
where it's just like, like, yeah, I

will throw them off a building into a
trashcan for those watch Disney, you

know, Daredevil when it hits Disney plus.

And as of this recording five days, March

Trey: 16th.


So, yeah, I, uh, they're doing a lot
of great work here because they, I

mean the way they introduce the, the
physical aspect of this, because,

and that's another thing I think
that works for this movie is yes,

you have the mystical arts, but they
grounded with martial arts as well.

And I think that blending of
a grounded and fantastical,

uh, works to their advantage.

But as, as they're seeing a
strange goes through his training

and you have that moment.

Where mortals like fights fight.

Like your life depends on it.

Like that moment, you can see a stranger
as like, this is not what I signed up

for and they follow it up with him.

He starts to reach back for his old life.

He ha he starts to email Christine, which
my point doesn't have a hundred percent

full-proof in this because he does mention
like, Hey, I tried to write you multiple

times, but I, at least in the sequencing
of the shots, I like that you start

to see him reach back to his old life
because he's torn between two worlds.

Uh it's.

It's like what I said when we ended
the first act, he has mastered

with the mind once, but now he's in
conflict with what the heart wants,

because he has this power, but it
is not what he thought it'd be.

Jude: Right.

Well, he still hasn't grown past.

Which was to fix my hands.

And so in that it's, I think you're right.

It is a mix of I've grown and
an apology, but even more.

So what did I get myself into,
especially in that moment.


Trey: Which in stranger's defense
motto is coming on a little strong,

cause they were just having a nice
relaxing conversation and all of

a sudden it's like, fight, fight.

Like your life depends on it.

I mean, I would be nervous if
somebody started coming out and

Jude: be like that.


And especially in like, well,
what do I get my weapon?

The weapon will choose let's bar
for the first time I get the boots.

I get the stick, you get flimsy

Trey: shields and a rope.


Jude: Whatever you got.


You know,

Trey: you know, we joke, but I do
think that is important to highlight.

We've been talking around it, but
eventually there is an attack on the

London sanctum, and that is one of
the, the inciting incidents that really

kicks off the middle of the movie.

But what really incites strange to action
and hearkens back to the Hippocratic oath.

It is not until he sees somebody in danger
that he really jumps into the action

because of that need to protect and help.

And we joked about the weapons,
but his weapons are not lethal.

They're almost in defense.

Like it's a shield, it's the, the rope.

And eventually the Cape that, uh,
despite its best to try and strangle

the guys, it's still pretty non-lethal.

Jude: Yeah.

Well look, I have not UN.

At the sink or swim model, car
montage, like you need to do a portal.

I can get you to do a portal.

I can drop some off at the
top of whatever is, how do you

feel that Mount Everest know?

I don't think it was the top.

Cause it might not have
been enough oxygen for him.

No, maybe it was just like midway, but
man, like the whole sink or swim model.

Um, we know that I love
that you bring that up.

Cause it's, it's the fence of
mechanisms and that little it's like

the towel, you know, you used like
poppy each other with, but it's magical.


It's like, that's essentially
what he's fighting with.

Um, Oh, man,

Trey: you have recontextualized
the Cape for me,

gym class heroes going on,

Jude: that brings up.

I don't want to say fond
memories of middle school.

Trey: Yeah.

Those are too incongruous
where here in Congress

Jude: words.

Trey: So, you know, I want to circle
back to something you said earlier,

you were talking about strangest
growth in particular, you use the

idea of like, not apologizing yet.

Uh it's so perfect that you say
that because part of the fight that

happens here at the sanctum ends
up with strange fighting one of

the zealots and an Asheville form.


Christine works.

Is it?

See you later?

I thought it was zealot.

Pretty sure exhibit.

All right, I'll switch it up.

Zelle it, whatever.

Zealot, uh, you know, one, one of the
things I think is perfect about it is the

intersection of what we've been talking
about, the magic and the realism, but

it hearkens back to strange has gotten
to the point where he probably could

operate on himself in theory now, but he's
putting that trust into Christine's hands.

And as that fight continues and
it's finally over, he does make

that apology you were talking about.

And I thought it was a wonderful
moment that we see him at this low

point and make probably one of the
most sincere apologies or any sort

of sincere statement, uh, to somebody
else for the first time in this movie.

Jude: Oh yeah.

Can I, my thought is, is as I'm
going to creep into act three.


And then we'll come back, but.

Well in this moment, you're like,
oh, he could write astral plane.

And, you know, we could theorize that, you
know, but he talks for steam through it.

But after, when, when they go back right
after the ancient one takes the fall

and they go back, Nick is there Dr.

West the one that he ameliorated and he
holds the scalpel ready to do the surgery.

Then he hands it over to the other doctor.

Like, like that is also a moment
of like, I can't do this and this

humility, and now this trusting
somebody else with, with this, right.

Or this acknowledgement of like
intellectually, I know I can't do

it, but it's not for me to do, you
know, and then me in truly setting

the ego aside because the ancient
one is also someone he cares about.

Like there's a vested personal injury.

You know, and, and so, so you have
that, like you said, apology with

Christine, but then there's a moment
where he also, you know, not verbally,

but in action is an apology to doctor.

Which I think is fantastic.

Trey: Yeah.

I'll jump with you because
that is definitely a moment

that stood out to me as well.

Uh, and something that I set up with
Pangborn at the beginning, it is

through Pang, borns, empathy that
strange gets put on this journey.

I love that.

And maybe it's not the exact word,
but I'm going to stress the definition

for the point, because I think there
is something there, it is strange

showing empathy towards Nick of like,
you can do this, that puts Nick in

the position to be able to do the
surgery, uh, or at least trust that he

can do it to the best of his ability.

And I, I, like you said,
it's a turning point for

Jude: strange.


And we have to, I think, yeah, I'm going
to say that we have to imagine what kind

of moment or ego boost maybe, maybe just
moment that is for, for Nick to have

strange who would constantly be little
them to then say, here you do this.

And it was all done.

I don't remember.

I don't think there was words.

It was all done with facial expressions
and the handing over the scalpel,

but the way that moment was done, it
was, you know, you can see PA apology

accepted maybe, or this boost of
confidence in doc, in Nick, you know?

And so in that sense, like it was
just a really well done to like

close that story between them too.

I do want to say this.

I hate just skipping ahead because
I remember the first time in the

theater and that fall in ancient one,
hitting the glass and the concrete.

And I was like, oh wow, that's brutal.

A hundred percent brutal.

Like I

Trey: went, I still wins
every time that scene and

Jude: I know it's coming.




And there was a beheading and
act one when Castillio stole the

pages from cache Cagliari estro,
write a book and Kelly OSHA.

And I still like, okay, it's a
movie, but that one that felt it.

I think you

Trey: hear it kind of like plop into the
culture in which makes it so much worse.

Well, now I feel even worse
about having to go back.


All we got left to talk about in act two
was just the, the ensuing fight itself.

Uh, you did already mentioned about how
mortar was like, Hey, this wasn't clever.

It was, it was suicide.

And it all builds up to this moment where
the ancient one intervenes and saves Moto

and strange to fight off the zealots.

The zealots and and the reason why,
like we always talk about this when it

comes to the action, it's just like us
going to go, like, man, that was so cool.

My note is literally the
ancient ones, so cool.

Like she comes in and her entrance
into that mirror dimension

mention just so fantastic.

The thing I love about the way she
plays the character is she comes

in with this stern composed face as
she's fighting off and then she looks

towards strange and Mordo, as she's
realizing her life's been exposed

and you can see the pain on her face.

And then she goes back to that
stern, look with the Visalia.

And then as he starts to lay out
his grievances, you can see that

she feels that pain as well.

So even though she has to be this
stern form of defense, she still

cares about . And I think that

Jude: goes a long way.

And I think, I think that caring
is what brings about her death.

And one of the things.

That you see here is Cassellius
was willing to kill one of his

own to get to the ancient one.

And that's, I mean, it goes without saying
that that's not something the ancient

one is like, that's not something you'd
expect the ancient one to do, but clearly

you could make a case that, well, ancient
one wasn't expecting it either, right.

But if she's traveled forward in time
and to say, every time I stop at this

moment, it also stays as a reason that
she knew that that was going to happen

and still ran into that situation
anyways, which is very, you can eat.

I mean, the day you want are two ways.

That's either.

The whole Mordo, I'm not going to mess
with natural law, although that's not

the proper term or it's, you know,
cause like this is what fate says is

going to happen or it's no, I'm going
to go protect them anyways, even though

this is going to happen, you know?

Um, so yeah, so it, it's just, I
do find that really fascinating

about her character there.


Trey: if it's okay with you, I
want to play off that by fully

transitioning us into act three.

I know I normally start with you.

Uh, but I, I think we've, we've kinda
tiptoe between these two, you know, you

talked about the idea of her knowing
when this was going to happen and that's

something I've never really thought about.

But now that you've said that out
loud, it's gotten my, my wheels

turning and it pairs so nicely.

One of the most beautiful scenes I
think in this movie, uh, and to get

into it, you, you know, you already
talked about the scene with Nick, where

he hands him, the scalpel, if that
is the externalization of the lesson,

learned like the, the, the actions that
he takes is the, the lesson learned,

demonstrated it is that conversation
with the ancient one where she just says,

it's not about you, that it finally,
because the way they do it, they have

where they're both in their astral form.

Uh, the camera's almost to, I believe
the right of the ancient ones.

There's Dr.


And then it pans to the left and you
see strange through the translucent

nature of the ancient one, as that's
like that realization is coming across.

That is the internal psyche
realization of the lesson.

He fully understands it on a
conscious level, uh, that it's not

Jude: about him.

Like that's a classic.


So you have the shirt shot,
reverse shot behind them.

And as the aha moment happens, or the
glass shattering moment happens, it's

a one movement or the camera swings
around to a different perspective to

show us that there is a new perspective
in the character, you know, and now it's

shot reverse shot from the front and.

And you, and w when you know that
that's a, that's a technique and you're

looking for it, you know, you see it
a lot of like, oh, you're having this.

And all of a sudden, whoa, the
dynamic something's changed.

It went from nice to hostile or
hostile or hostile, hostile, take

your pick to nice that, like,
there's a, yeah, there's a shift.

Um, in that shift of the, is that a homo?

And it was another example of just
great filmmaking on Scott Derrickson

Trey: spark, it's a literal
shift and perspective.

Uh, and, and, and I bring that, all that
up because like everything, all my notes

are geared towards that moment of Dr.


But it makes me realize that's what
I think drew the ancient one to Dr.

Strange, because she had to
learn that lesson herself.

It's not about you, it's not about her.

And as many times as she's tried to
foresee past this moment, and even at the

end of her life, as she tries to extend
it, just to enjoy the snow one more time.

She is finally made peace
with this is where it ends.

And you mentioned earlier
about the, and I'm not going

to try and recap it perfectly.

Cause I think I might do it a disjustice,
but you're talking about the desires

and it's not bad to have desires.

It's the ability to let them go.

If I understood that correctly,
what's beautiful is I think

so much of what the lesson.

Of this movie is, is that the ancient one
had reached this status of, I have this

knowledge, I have this mystical arts.

I have almost this, I don't want to say
I'm , but it's just, there's so much vast

knowledge after so much time and being
able to see in the future and despite

all that, she still had that human
part of her was she was afraid of death

and she tried to control it for years.

And so that's one of the lessons.

And one of the smaller lessons with
that is that I don't think there,

there, there are no right answers.

There's just only the best of intentions.

And so the, the group of people that she
was left to work with, which is Mordo

and strange is between the two of them.

There should be an ability to, you
know, know when it's okay to break

the rules for the greater good.

And when it's okay to adhere to the
rigid structures of safety, which

is what I think mortal represents
on one end and strange on the other.

Jude: Well to that last thing, I have a
couple of thoughts I'm gonna, I'm gonna,

I'm gonna set that thought to the side
for a second and just be, uh, cause I

love that conversation because, because
also what you get, or at least for me,

you get that apology to, to Nick, right.

And handing over the scalpel.

And then he goes in the astral form
and then he realizes, wait a minute.

I could have used my hands.

Like he has reached the point where
pain board has, you know, and, and

you see where he's gone further than
paying horn, paying horn Pangborn.

Um, you know, it it's it's that desire.


Sell it.

Um, is that, there's that desire, right?

It's like you said, it's.

It's it's understanding that
desire isn't bad, but this desire

it's impossible to be fulfilled.

And so you, you outgrow it and, and,
and your desire, um, is still there,

but you desire something different,
something deeper and more meaningful.

And then when that's you realize, you
know, strictly Buddhist sense or, or

a Hindu Buddhist sense is like that
desire, you realize, oh wait, this

isn't going to be fulfilling either.

So the desire doesn't go away, but
it again goes deeper to ultimately

in a strictly Hindu San since
like, what do we really want?

Well, we want intranet
knowledge into exist.



And beyond all of this.

And it's like, isn't it
interesting with death?

Cause like there's a, I used
to, we all wrestle with our own

mortality in different ways.

And for the longest time, you know,
one of the ways I wrestled with it

and conclusion I came to it was, um,
and to make a long story short, you

know, just to sum it up and say, it's
irrational to be afraid of death.

Um, it just is because
it's going to happen.

We know what's going to happen.

Um, and if we're honest with
ourselves, What we're really

afraid of is death too soon.


Um, and, and that's where I was at.

And I remember talking with a good friend
of mine where he turned, and this was a

couple of years ago where he turned 70.

And I remember having this conversation
with them and he was like, dude,

now that I'm 70, I'm much closer
to my death than I ever was.

And I can tell you that still
death is too going to be too soon.

You know?

And that's always stuck
with me of like age wise.

Like that was how I wrestled
in, you know what I mean?

And like in like rationalize that
of like, oh, I'm okay with it.

It's going to happen.

It's just too soon.

But as you get older, you realize,
well, that doesn't even make

sense because I've been clinging.

I, this, the angel one I'm
stretching, even this moment out.

Um, death is always going to be
too soon, unless you're at peace

and your fill that fulfillment.


Um, and again, go back to Hindu and
Buddhist thought, that's the whole

reaching enlightenment, Nirvana
and escaping the life cycle is.

Ultimate contentment
and fulfillment, right.

Um, that comes with understanding
the attachment, do everything right.

Or your, or not attachment, maybe
everything is in relationship.

Um, the Christian Catholic
sense is going to be, I've led

a good Christ's life, right?

That I am now worthy of the going
to heaven just to put it that way.

Um, you know, so the, the, the
Catholic Christian Catholic and

Christian version of that would
be of, of death would be there.

Um, you know, and I think that's
what, what you were saying.

Once you see the ancient
one wrestling with, of like,

look, I know it's inevitable.

I know it's coming.

I've seen this moment, moment many
of times, and I'm still trying to

stretch out this, this one moment.

You know, and then it reaches a
point where it's like, and for me, at

least the way I read it, she let go.

It wasn't like the time ran out because
you see that dialogue, her disappear,

and then the flat line, otherwise,
if you reverse that editing and

flatline and then her disappear, it's
like, she dies still clinging to it.

If that makes sense, a hundred

Trey: percent makes sense
and a wonderful read.

Jude: So I really love that aspect again,
his strange and his desire, like knowing

all this magic and like, oh, I'm going
to go to the national forum and try to

stop the ancient one from doing this.

He also realizes not just to, not about
you, but it's like, wait a minute.

I actually can control my hands.

And, and he didn't realize it before.

It's almost like he was, I didn't
learn enough yet to control my hands.

And now he's realizing, oh, wait a minute.

I've grown past that.

That's not really what I desire.

That's not really what
I want, is it, you know?

And, and that's an ultimate
sense of, of growth.

And this there's more to me
and being who I am, you know?

And, and I remember now,
but there's dialogue.

And I think it comes at this point
after the ancient ones, a death, but

where he says to Christine you're right.

There's other ways to
save and help people.

It is

Trey: after the passing of the,
and it's when he's washing his

Jude: hands.

And so, and again, what
he's washing his hands.


And so we're back at the hands.

And in that moment, it's not just about
like, oh, I accept the fate of my hands.

I accept that.

I have grown past this and I've grown
into a completely different person.

I'm going

Trey: to read you my notes
verbatim because I you're,

you're making me happy right now.

I love the scene as well, because we now
know that strange can heal his hands yet.

We're backward started for him cleansing
his hands, but this time with the

ability to choose his old life, but
he chooses to serve the greater good.

We've almost finished the hero
journey, but now it's time to

return home having changed.

Like it was just like, oh, it's so good.


Jude: Yeah.

And, and what was that first stage
I got to go back and mortar is

going to be pissed, but I got to
talk you into, you said you got to

fight like your life depended on it.

Now's the time.

And I can't do it.

Wasn't specifically.

I can't do this by myself, you know?

And so before he even goes
into battle, he has to go get.

Whereas earlier it's like, I could
have done it bachelor's degree, right?


Trey: man.

I get, I get why this be

Jude: so good.

So good.

Trey: Oh man.

We took two different buses, but we
were on the same field trip there.

I, uh, I, I get why people don't like
this movie strangest such a jerk, right?

It really is.

But if you give it that space, that
journey that they take them on is so good.

I know, I love this man.

I'm glad we're doing this podcast

Jude: together.

It's so good.

Oh, room.

Trey: You know, we, we're getting to the
point where we find ourselves in a lot

of these Marvel movies where we kind of
just got the action stuff to talk about.

Uh, not that that's not important, but a.

We usually group it together
and kind of a big lump.

So is there any, any scene in
particular that stood out to you

with, with these final action
bits because it kind of Pickens it

Jude: quickens up the pace from here.

You're saying, I want to say about
the action, um, is going to be, I

remember thinking this is amazing.

I've never seen anything like
it before, and I want to say.

Christopher Nolan thought the same thing.

And then when it made tenent and w I knew
Christopher Nolan was like, hold my beer.

I'm going to do reverse forward
at the same time, just like you

did, but with the same people

Trey: I'm going to do you one better.

I, 100%, this is my own personal head.

Canon inception comes out and
inspires doctor, strange doctor

strange comes out and inspires tenet.

And I'm very curious to see if we can
see any sort of light of inspiration

from tenet into multi versatile madness.

Oh yeah.

Because it's just, the visuals are
so much like what inception was doing

with that dreamy mind bendy stuff.

And like you said, the added that element
of time, which inception played with,

but not quite to the extent that Dr.

Strange does, and then 10, it just takes

Jude: it to 11.

T again, I've lost all
objectivity to Tinder.

I might watch it tonight just talking
about it and just, I love that

Trey: you won't be finished until like

Jude: three.

I don't care.

I love that movie.

Look with my headache today.

I actually took like a four hour nap
if Amity didn't wake me up at like

four in the afternoon, because worried
about like me not being able to sleep.

I might've slept until
we started recording.

I was out, you know, and she was so sweet.

She brought me tea, she brought me
something, a little snack on, you know,

shut the door and I kind of took my time.

And then eventually she came
and just opened the door.

So Francis the pod mascot would
come running in and jump on the bed

just to ensure that I would get up.


So like it's it's yeah, I I'm
in, I can watch that movie again,

but now, so like I'm, I'm there,
like it it's, it's so good.

And you have that.

So like, that was one of the things
I thought about just the action.

Um, you know, I think I put
a pin on a couple of things.

One is like, we, we end in two ways
a, um, at the very end, you see Dr.

Strange putting his watch back on, right.

And kind of this momentum.


Remember, you know, the, when I say
memento, I'm thinking like, again,

Nolan, um, you know, his first, his
second film, I guess, was it momentum?

I believe it was the second one.


Well, no, what I'm saying is, is it
is, is you're you're getting into this

and making sure I'm saying it right
as it's this Latin for, I believe for

remember, you know, and, and so, so in
that sense, like, it's literally have

like put this on and, and here's the,
that reminder, remember where you came

from, you know, it's that, it's that,
that object of, of humility and growth

to like, don't let this get to your head.


Um, and so you, so you have that from
the beginning of, of this controlling

of time from a egotistical power since.

To use of time, which our mom, who
in a unselfish way, because at some

point, like he says the line, like, you
know, death is an old friend, right.

Or pain as an old friend.

And when you're in a place like now
you get a little bit philosophical,

I guess, you know, and for as many
times as they show it, we have to

imagine for as many times as they
showed his death times infinity, right.

Because Dormamuu is outside
of time and doesn't experience

time, the way we understand it.


And now Dre, strangers trapped
them in a time loop in a sense

he trapped himself in eternity.

And the only way he can get out is when
Dormamuu realizes my escape is to do the.

You know, so that control of time
is there again, but it's out of a,

a selfless motivation, which I loved
how they use that towards the end.

So that was super

Trey: clever and it kind of
goes back to what we were.

Well, what I said earlier
about he doctors are Dr.

Strange Steven strange is doing the
good thing with the wrong intentions.

You could argue he's doing the
wrong thing here with messing with

time, for the good intentions and
the, the selfish, uh, intentions.

Because if regardless,
strange succeeds, right.

Either he gets the bargain and
he gets to continue, or they are

trapped in that arrangement forever.

And it's, it's, it's not in
the mirror dimension, but it's.

It calls back to it.

Nobody would know what strange has done,
and he would have saved the world and

the world would have been better for it.

And so it just, it really remains one
of my favorite resolutions, I think, in

the MCU, because it's so inventive on a
visual level, on a narrative level and,

and kind of like you're getting at that
philosophy level of, I love the line.

I can lose all, all
day and are not mixing.

And captain America one I can,
uh, I can lose over and over and

Jude: over again.

And the other pin on this in terms
of like defeating himself, right.

And Cassius, he didn't overpowers Cassius.


It's, it's a weird version of cause
Cassilis dies, but it is a weird spin

on laying down the shield, laying down
the sword or whatever it is, right.

There's this redemption
almost through nonviolence.


Cause he's like, he realizes
like I can't beat you.

And, and it, and it walks this fine line
and he'd say like, oh, we're messing.

Like, like the only reason why you
would say you're doing it, the right

thing, or you have the right intentions.

But the wrong means, right.

By using the time loop is because
you have the Mordo plant of

natural law, natural law, you don't
mess with this bill comes due.


And so, but really what, you
know, I, you think about it.

He's like, I can't beat
you at your own game.

I'm going to go do this.

And he returns.

And when he returns, what
it's you get this again?

All right.

Get up strange, you know, and they all
stand up and we see that moment again

and strange comes in behind and he's
able to do that because he's returning

time travel on a really small scale.

You know, and, and so in that
sense, he's like he didn't have

to fight him to defeat him.

You know, it was, it was a
conquering of, of Cassius wanting

this power and that desire for
power and being driven for that.

And strange realizing that I chew
was driven by ambition and power, and

that's not the way to go about things.

And by sacrificing myself to an
eternity of just over and over

death is really what won the day.

And because Cassius doesn't understand
that he is in a sense defeated, you know,

or the power hungry side of strange that's
represented in Cassius is defeated then.

So that's the other thing
where it was just like super

clever of how they ended it.

Now, the last thing I will say, and
when he said, oh, the well, and I

said, ah, I, I do struggle with the
idea of saying like, You know, and,

and again, I'd mentioned the very
beginning of the Catholic in me.

Um, again, not speaking for Catholicism,
I'm just saying the Catholic in me,

this is the whole, you know, can I,
in a moral sense, do something quote

unquote, wrong or bad for a good outcome?

Is that morally acceptable?

And my intuition and inclination
is the same now, you know?

And, and so that is one of those
things where it's just like, is there

a situation where someone personally
can do intentionally a bad action

to serve as a, so it'd be like, my
primary intent is for the good result.

And I have to allow secondarily
the secondary intention of

doing an intentional, bad act.

Um, gut reaction is like,
no, we can't do that.

Um, now I realize.

I'm way over simplifying a lot of things.

Cause there's probably people
out there who just like, I

mean, what about this situation?

What about that situation?

I'm going to be like, oh, let's talk about
principle of double effect and, or, you

know, the direct and indirect voluntary
to get a little bit more technical, you

know, and we'll have those conversations.

So I realize I'm way oversimplifying it.

Um, but in the context of like, like the,
as the rigidity and the flexibility that

you see between Mordo and strange, um, I
would argue that somewhere where I'm just

like, okay, I need to take that side of my
mind and set it aside to enjoy the movie.


Trey: man.


I, I guess that's why it works for
me because it is that it speaks to me

of believing there's a happy medium
and knowing when to flip between

them, the, that, uh, I don't know.

I'd hit me really hard in that

Jude: scene.


Well, and I get it and
that's just a function of.

And we all, we all deal
with it in our own way.

You come in to a test.

I don't care what it is.

This podcast, a movie, a book
with viewpoints and experiences.

And what are you able to set
aside and not, and that has a big

impact on what works for people.

Trey: So I think, uh, one of the few
things that I want to add is real quick.

We, we talked about the, uh, the spectrum,
I guess, if you want to put it to

the re the rigidity and the flexible.

Well, no, I can't say this.

You can agree to this.

Cause this is actually
speaking more to my point.

I love Wong's reaction to it.

Wong understands, Hey, don't mess with the
natural law, but I love his line where he,

where he'd say we're strange saves Wong
from dev and walks, like looking at him.

He's like, I know the natural law.

And while I was like,
well, don't stop now.


So in, in my, in my viewpoint of
the, the problem here, Wong is

the embodiment of that in between.

I know this is wrong, but keep it going

Jude: well.

And they really played into
Martos rigidity, right?

Like, yeah.


You saved the day, but
the Bill's going to come.

You know, like, yeah.

Oh, how haunting even our mortal couldn't
even be happy with the resolution.

Trey: Oh, Mordo is one a
hundred percent broken.

And I think broken, it has the
potential to be one of the, it depends

on where we want to go with this.

And I don't know if we want
to dig too deep into it.

A potential to be a huge antihero
in the MCU has a lingering one.

Um, because we see what the
post credit reveals about them.

But because we got this almost
origin story of them, I could

see him being a lingering threat
within the MCU without being like

a main antagonist, not to, not to.

Under sell him as a character, but
more so of being that constant of an

idea to bounce off of, if that makes
sense, not nest, not necessarily

an antagonist that needs to be

Jude: defeated.

Well, I'd also say in terms of broken,
I would say it's a different kind of

broken because when strange puts back,
the watch back on it is that's still

broken and it's this, as I said, this
memento, this reminder that again,

the Catholic coming out of me, we're
all broken right to certain degrees

and that's what makes us human.

And the goal is, and like Steven
Cole bears words to be most human.

That's what we all want.


Like we want to be, have gratitude
that we even exist in our life and

comes with that as suffering could
just necessarily the case and.

I have gratitude for that, because now I
can empathize with other people because

I have suffered and I can empathize
with them when they have suffered.

We are broken.

Whereas more dose brokenness
is a, is a very different

type of brokenness, you know?

Um, and it's that, that whole, so
tightly wound rigidity of can't

let go of something, you know,
it's the, from Les Miz, right.

And his whole song about
the stars that are constant.

And because of that, I'm good.

Um, and then that's something
shatters that and like, this

is that moment for Mordo.

Um, yeah.

And it's, you know, and, and you can't
reconcile like, oh, this happened,

but it's, you know, and, and, and
Nate, he goes off no longer follow

this path and can't follow this path.

Um, and I mean, in lame is I don't
feel like, I mean, it's a spoiler

if you haven't seen it, but yeah.

I'm okay with it at this point,
like it leads to a suicide.

Like I can no longer this.

And like, in Martos case, it's
like, I can't follow this path.

And I got.

You know, any the tag using
sorcery powers insured.

There's no more source

Trey: despite how we talked about it being
like a quote-unquote success in strange,

this movie really ends on a downer.

Uh, I mean, everything you just
described with Mordo the earth now

being without a sorcerer Supreme,
and even though strangers embraced

his new life, there is some sadness
still associated with that scene.

You talk about where he's putting on the
watch and just kind of looking out as the

music swells it's the protagonists have
one, but man, there is a heavy price paid

and I've never thought about it until
hearing you articulate what you just did.

And then kind of speaking through
this, that it really hammers home.

The bill comes due
feeling here at the end.

Jude: Strange isn't
reunited with Christina.

It's putting on the broken watch in
isolation and the sanctum, you know,

Trey: well at a movie.

Well, uh, unless we have any more to say,
I think we can move into our listeners

Jude: first takes.

I think we should move
into Alicia's first takes.

Cause we could probably find things
to say this movie is so good.

Trey: I purposely avoided
straight thoughts for that reason.

So if you don't know, we put
out on social media that we

were going to be reviewing Dr.

Strange, and you've all been patiently
waiting since it's been a bit of a, uh,

of a time since we tweeted this out.

Uh, and we asked everyone, what
was the first scene you thought

of whenever you think about Dr.


Uh, so we're going to read through
some of the responses we got

both on Instagram and Twitter.

Uh, and this first one comes in from Benji
FET seven over on Instagram, love the pod.

Uh, for me it was the ancient one
brought strange under the mountain

and made him make the portal.

Uh, yeah, we talked about that
one and I, I think you're right.


You know, do you classify it as, as
pushing strange into the deep end, but

I think what's special about that scene
as well is how you can start to see the

doubt a little bit on the ancient one.

And she's like, oh no, maybe this was
a bad idea right before he comes back.

Jude: So I'm glad you love the pod.

And I love the name.

Mingy FET seven.

I love it.


Trey: I'm sorry.

I'd poo-pooed Boba Fett two weeks ago.

Jude: The character there's the show.

Um, yeah.

Thanks for the clarification.

Yeah, next one.

Dormamuu I've come to.

Ben dot Maddie on Instagram.


Like again, it's Hey, it's such
a, it's such a clever scene.

I feel like it's, again, it's
one of those things that it,

that it felt new and fresh to me.

Like I like, oh, this is so clever.

I've not seen it in this way before.

Trey: Um, this next one comes
from caption life on Instagram.

It reads Cape flicking, strange as hair.

Ain't no, that's not something that
we talked about in this review.

And it's probably something I would
have brought up in the stray thoughts

was the, this moment I think is
a perfect representation of the

criticism that Marvel gets a lot
about like, oh, you know, let your,

let your emotional scenes linger.

And yet they interject it with comedy.

But man, it's still so funny.

I hate that.

I love it and hate it at the same time.

Jude: Yeah.

Like I, I agree.

And that's the, one of the
things I bring up of like, oh

man, that's such a good moment.

Why you undercut it?

But it's not like I didn't laugh.

It's not like I didn't enjoy it.

So yeah, the next one, when the ancient
one introduces strange to the mirror

dimension, uh, that's from TK on Twitter.

Trey: Go ahead and jump in and read this
one and we can both make our comments.

Uh, this one comes in from
friend Daniel on Twitter and

it says the mirror dementia.


Jude: Well, you know what?

Okay, so the next one what's strange
is in the mirror dimension, Cassius out

Rodriguez on Twitter from MTU rewind.

I love that all three of those from
TK, you know, there was an idea,

Marvel cinematic universe podcast,
Fred Daniel, the universal friend who

frequently on ours and case podcast.

Um, if you're looking for a guest and
you have another podcast, reach out to

Fred Daniel, um, and Rodriguez look at
listen to their stuff, Alan, Tony on

MC rewind, but it's perfect that the
mirror dimension was moment three times.

Cause that was such an integral part to.

Uh, the movie in such an integral
part to just the Rubik's cube

environment, it's just, it was amazing.

Trey: The structural beauty
that this narrative has with the

mirror dimension is chef's kiss.

Like it opens up with the
mirror, dimensioned fight

with KCLS and the ancient one.

And we go through all this strange
learns about the mirror dimension, and

it's all new to him as he's taken in on
this knowledge and the inciting action

that kicks us all the way through the
end is when strange learns to do the

mirror dimension on his own and fights.

Casey Lee is there, come on.

So good.

Jude: I know when it blows my mind
and we didn't talk about it in this

action sequence talking about it,
and this is again, the Mordo and

stuff, and they really like the whole
city's moving around the imagination

and the creativity to do this.

Because you have to, you know, they're
going to do an animatic, they're going

to story new, basically animatic.

So you're going to have storyboards,
but this is an actual, like

rough animation storyboard.

So, you know, going in where to place
the camera and all of those things, but

then to do that, you have to, you know,
and see some of the behind the scenes.

There's a lot of green screen work, but
there's also practical sets as well.

And to think through all of that and
the angles and all that just blows

my mind of how that scene works.

So well.

Trey: It's, I think every
time I've watched it with a

friend, the first thing is.

How do you even begin to
conceptualize all this?


Like where do you

Jude: start?

Why we have the pod?

Trey: All right.

Well, this next one comes in
from bubbles dancer on Twitter.

Good friend bulbs.

Uh, Dormamuu I've come to be a
pain in the ass, or at least that's

how I remember the scene going.

So it's, uh, it's pretty clear that
Bubs is, uh, written for Dormamuu.

Jude: I love your memory of it attached to

Trey: it.

Like to see a recount of this
movie of bugs, his memory of it.

Jude: Dr.


I'm a pain in the ass.

Get ready.

All right.

I am so thrilled as I get
to read this last one.

So the last one Wong listening to
Beyonce kin from Twitter kid, my

good friend and coworker that I
believe his nephew listens as well.

Um, The whole, the one that just says,
listen to Beyonce, but the whole one name

thing, pong, Beyonce, just, this gets me.

Um, cause I mean, what was the rest?


There was Bingy FET, spin dot
Maddie captioned, life TK,

front Daniel Al Rodriguez.



just so fitting that that's the one
he did where it was like walking,

listening to me, I'd say, cause
that was the whole joke about it.

Like the one, the one name, one word name.

Uh, but yes, so good.

That was, I too remember watching
it, um, at the theater and think

of that moment was awesome.

And I still, every time love that.


And again, it's another one of
those things where you're, where

they're messing with stereotypes.

Trey: Yeah.

It's just, it's so wonderfully done set up
and paid off it's to me, that's the good

humor for all the criticism that it gets.

Oh yeah.


Well, that's going to do it
for the listeners first take.

So I, I do want to say thank you all so
much for chiming in with your thoughts.

It's always a fun time to get, to
hear what you thought of, whatever,

you know, TV show or movie we
happen to be reviewing that week.

Well, dude, that brings
us to the end of the show.

Any final words on the.

Jude: Live long and prosper.

Ah, I love it.

Oh man.

Well, that's all I got.

It's 1145.

We've been at this in seven 30.

I got nothing else.


Trey: know friend, not friend
Daniel, family, Daniel cursed us.

Jude: I know.


But it was fun.

Trey: It was fun.

Thank you so much for listening.

And of course, if you want to
chime in what you thought of Dr.

Strange, our takes on Dr.

Strange or any of the listeners takes.

You can always reach us at MC you
need to know on Twitter and Instagram.

It's a great place to connect with us
and continue the conversation of this

Jude: podcast.

Be sure to scroll.

Uh, in the show notes, you'll
see a link to our discord.

You can join that.

Um, real quick apology.

I have been Mia on the discourse.

I feel guilty reading or reading.

I don't, I just make it up each time.

Uh, this part of the outro, I'm looking
forward to myself, jumping back in and

getting involved again, had a weird
stretch of weeks that kept me from it.

Um, however, if you have been in and go
join, you're going to see, you can get to

interact with people like friend Daniel
and some TK and Ellie from OSHA podcast

and Trey and Sean from the caption life
and a bunch of other wonderful people.

Uh, That I'm not too name.

Cause I don't know if they
feel comfortable being

named outright, hear them.

I know it's okay.

Uh, but come and join.

The conversation is
it's a wonderful place.

Um, other things you can do for
us, you're here and you've made

it to this point time and assume
you like what you're listening to.

Please leave a rating review,
especially on Spotify, since

that's a new feature, um, and it's
will help our discoverability.

And that's great for us.

You're helping us by being discovered or.

Push somebody along,
share it with a friend.


Trey: We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy
for the use of our theme song, which

is his rendition of the Avengers theme.

You find more of his work on a SoundCloud,
which is linked in the show notes as well.

That's going to do it.

Thank you so much for listening and Jude.

Thank you so much for doing this.

Thank you tray.

We'll see you all next week.


So when I did this solo episode
last week, it felt so weird doing,

thank you all for listening.

We'll see you all next week.

I was so missing the
thank-you you for doing

Jude: so you didn't add,
like, thanks Jude for baling.

See you all.

Trey: I guess it's got to
be an inflection next time.

It's like, thank you, Jude for doing this.

Jude: Thanks for your absence.

If you don't like the solo
episode, tweeted cheese.

Trey: All complaints can be
sent to Jude at MC and you know,

Jude: that's so funny that you
would say, as you say that, because

that email doesn't exist yet.

Trey: Oh, I was saving you.


I'm not going to docs or email.

Oh man.

And to think we wouldn't get an intake.


All right.

I'm going to

Jude: start recording.


I'll stop.

Trey: Just under three hours.

Join our Discord here
As always, share with a friend
and shout out Nick Sandy