Trey: hello and welcome back to another
episode, MC you need to know a podcast

dedicated to the Marvel cinematic universe
and everything that you need to know.

I'm Trey,

Jude: how are you doing Trey?

Trey: Well, dude, I'm excited because
today we're joined by a newcomer to

the show, whether it's writing reviews
for comic watch.com or hopping onto

the mic for the captain life podcast.

Our guest is well versed
in speaking TV and film.

We're so delighted to
welcome Sean to the pod.

Welcome Sean.

Sean: Welcome.

Hey, thanks for having me on guys.

I'm really excited.

Yeah.

Jude: Hey, it's, you know what we've you

got two weeks, one of those kind of weeks.

Trey: I know you have
that effect on people.

It seems like you're well-practiced.

Jude: Well, I say it's, it's, it's
exciting because you know, we've been

interacting and talking with you on
Twitter and gosh, I guess Instagram

as well, and this back and forth
interaction went all through Hawkeye.

And I think at least
maybe a little bit before.

And so it's fun to finally, you
know, to, to get this in-person

well, virtual in-person I guess, uh,
the way to talk about these things.

Yeah,

Sean: same here.

And I really enjoy
interacting with you all.

And I think the fun thing about what
we do as podcasters is that we get

to interact with the community that
goes beyond just our direct circle of

friends who geek out over these things.

And I'll be honest.

Like I don't have a whole lot of
friends that I know personally that

geek out over the same stuff I do.

And so podcasting really gave me the
opportunity to connect with Kevin on that

front and then with you all and with so
many other people, to be able to just have

people to talk about with these things,
when you get excited about it, because

it's, you know, there's nothing more sad.

I feel like when you want to talk
to somebody, you just don't have

anybody like, you know, Right
there with you that, that you could

just talk to me about this stuff.

So I really love the fact that podcasting
has been able to do that for us.

So I'm so

Trey: glad the way you
described that to too.

It was like the circle of friends,
because I think the first time that

we got on each other's radar was, was
like Jude said during the Hawkeye run.

And that's when we got in,
touched with Ellie from shoot.

And she's the one who kind of like further
cemented, like, oh, your Sean's great.

And at that put into motion,
getting to work with, with you.

So

Sean: yeah.

Yeah, Nellie, Ellie's great
to have I interact with her

all the time and I absolutely.

You know, love her podcast is
she's just a joy to talk to you.

And we've had her on our
side to talk about Eternals.

So yeah, it's it's um, I appreciate that.

That's nice to hear.

So thank

Trey: you.

Yeah.

Well, you know, speaking of your show,
we did want to take some time here

at the top to spotlight your work.

You know, one of the things that always
fascinates me is the story behind the

name of the project that people pick.

So I was wondering if you could
walk our audience through what the

story is for the caption life, as
well as what it is that you and

your co-host Kevin do on that show.

Yeah.

Sean: So, you know, the
funny story is that.

Kevin.

And at the time James, we actually
used to have a team of three people.

It was Kevin, James, and I were just
following each other on Twitter, but we

never actually knew of each other until we
started following each other on Twitter.

And one day we just, you know, we're
interacting and replying to each

other and we were on Twitter and we
were just like, You know, we should

just start a podcast about the things
we enjoy with comics and everything.

I think what really got that
conversation started was there was a

conversation about diversity in comics.

And we were just talking about how,
you know, we were three white males

and we want to see more diversity
in comics that we support that.

And we're just like, you know,
gosh, it'd be such a great idea

to start a podcast around that.

And the three of us were like,
yeah, let's just do that.

So we, we got together and our
first year when we did that,

kind of did it like leisurely.

So we didn't really have a plan in terms
of having a regular set schedule of like

what we were going to talk about or how
often we're going to release episodes.

We're going to just try to put
episodes out there whenever we could.

And then just talk about
whatever we wanted to talk about.

And so when we first had our meeting
to kind of figure out what we're

going to do with the podcast at
first, we were thinking about.

Having something that's more related to
comics and education, but then the more

we discuss it, the more we were just
like, we didn't want to really pigeonhole

ourselves into such a specific niche
because we also wanted to open it up

for like other conversations we might
have or might want to have, you know?

And so sure enough, later on, you know,
this is our third year, we've actually

opened it up a lot more to, um, not
just comics, but things in pop culture.

So Kevin and I have a really
deep seated love for Disney.

And so we there's been a couple
episodes where we're talking about

just all things, Disney related.

We've had people on the show
that's whether they are.

Comics creators or artists, or
they're somehow connected to it,

or maybe even be adjacent to it.

So for example, we had somebody
on the show named Jonathan Bell.

That's a cause player that, uh,
his message or what he does as a

cause player is that he likes to
spread positivity around the world.

And so he really became famous
as being known as Seattle

Superman and came on our show.

It was just really fascinating to talk
about what he had to say and, and, and

what he's hoping to do with that and
how, you know, the character Superman

inspired him, not just to do that as
a cosplay, but just also as a person.

And we've also had other people
who, again, have not been.

Directly in the comics industry
been been affected by it.

So we've had like a college professors
come on and talk about how comics

actually had shaped and impacted societies
throughout the ages and things like that.

And so, so really we've kind of developed
this podcast to be something that gives

us an opportunity to talk about things
that we're interested in and have

conversations with other people about
those same topics, but also create a

platform where when people are doing
really great work that have like a

really good message, we want to be like a
megaphone for those people to be able to

share that message and to get that word
out there and to support them in that.

So when we were first trying to come up
with a name, like I said, we were thinking

about something in comics and education.

I think, um, Kevin had a really good name
for it, but then when we decided that we

wanted to do something, that's a little
bit more broader that has something to

do with comics, but maybe just something
that's, you know, it doesn't have to be.

Completely around comics, but
it's somehow connected to it

and kind of be broad enough.

That's where we kind of settled
on the caption life because, you

know, we know that captions are
something that's in comics with the

speech bubbles and things like that.

And that way always kind of brings it back
to something that's comics related as much

as possible, but it's not honing in on a
specific niece that keeps us locked in.

If we ever wanted to discuss
something that may not be.

Comics, you know, directly, but
it's somehow connected to it.

Like, you know, having people who, um,
have been interested in like superheroes

or something that, um, is like Disney
or universal or, or anything that is

kind of in or of that world in a sense.

So,

Trey: yeah.

That's fantastic.

Sean: Thank you.

Jude: Looking through and some of the
episodes, just for me, one of the standout

episodes I truly enjoyed was a number.

I'm going to say the number,
like, like, let me have them all

memorized what numbers they are.

Uh, the 45, a 45, where you
had, uh, Matthew Smith on.

Um,

Sean: yes, he was, the
college professor was talking

Jude: about, and that was
so much fun to listen to.

I got so much out of that.

Uh, I think I haven't got the book yet.

He was talking about, but I
definitely want to pick that up.

Sean: Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Well, thank you.

Yeah.

That's and that's exactly what we've been
trying to do is just get people on to kind

of, you know, be educational about that
stuff, but also whatever message they have

just, you know, that's really interesting.

Uh, but I mean, that's exactly what we're
going for is, you know, having a podcast

where we can bring in like different
guests and talk about different topics

or different things that they might
be experts on and things like that.

But I, I appreciate you saying
that, you know, you really enjoyed

that episode cause we really
enjoyed that one as well too.

And we felt like we learned
a lot from that as well, too.

So.

Yeah.

And one of the things I didn't mention
this before, but one of the things

that we've started to do with our
podcasts being in our third year now

is that every time we have a guest on,
we did this with, I think we started

with either David papers or Ebraheem
Mustapha, but we started to do a game.

Whenever a guest comes on, we try to do
like a fun little game that's centered

around what they're talking about.

And so every time we have a guest on,
we try to do a game with our guests.

And Kevin does a fantastic job of coming
up with some really fun creative games.

And what's funny is every
game that we played with our

guests, somehow I keep winning.

And at some point I think our audience is
going to be like, this is completely reg.

I assure you, it is not rigged.

I just keep getting lucky with this, but
I, I, we keep hearing from our guests that

they really enjoy doing the games with us.

And that that's one of the
reasons why we keep doing that.

We think that our listeners
really enjoy playing along with

those games as well, to this.

Trey: Oh, that's fantastic.

I haven't had the opportunity of listening
to an episode with a guest yet, but I

can't wait to see what that's like, and
I also can't help, but you know, you

call it funny that you keep winning.

I wonder what it would be like from
Kevin's perspective of what he would call

Sean: the and ask them about that.

Trey: Oh yeah, that's great.

But you know, another thing that we
mentioned@theintroisthatyouwritereviewsforcomicwatch.com.

You recently just put
one out for the new show.

Naomi.

Um, I was wondering if you could let
us know what that is like in sitting

down to review in written form and
whether or not prepping for a podcast

or a written review feeds into each
other, or if it's different processes.

Sean: Yeah.

So, you know, when I first started
writing for comic watch, I think back

in September, so I'm still relatively
new to this, or maybe it was.

It was just an opportunity that came
across that I was just like, I wanted to

do something a little bit more creative.

That's kind of outside a podcast.

So I'm a very creative person.

I like to come up with really creative
things, especially in multimedia.

So, you know, in addition to be a podcast
or also, you know, video editors, I

can, um, you know, take videos and
throw them in premiere pro and, and

do some editing and stuff like that.

And, and I'm usually the one.

Um, creates a lot of
our social media videos.

I haven't done a couple of them in a
while or anything like that, but I'm the

one that usually puts them together and,
and posts on our social media accounts.

And one of the things that I was
interested in is, is I still want to

do something along these lines, but I
thought writing would be just a really

good skill to have, because I know that
no matter what kind of job or career

or interests you go into writing has
always going to be a big part of that.

And writing, I feel
like is something that.

I'm good at, but I want to kind
of improve myself on that skill in

case I ever, you know, go down some
sort of career where that might be

something that would come in handy.

And so I saw that comic watch
was looking for people to

review TV and, and, um, films.

And so I applied and they took me
on and I've really been learning a

lot in terms of how all that works.

Uh, with that being said, I'm still
learning how to write a good review

just because, um, I, I kind of tend to
write like what really interests me.

Um, but I'm trying to also, um, figure out
like what people are really looking for.

Like, are people wanting to
know, like, is the story good?

Or do they want to know like the technical
aspects of the show or the film, like,

you know, the production value of the
acting, the writing and things like that.

Um, and so part of it is
trying to figure out like what.

Really are people looking for what
helps them, um, and, and what really

drives that engagement with that.

Um, and another difficult thing
is that we're kind of given a

task of writing a review within
like 500 to a thousand words.

And I got to say like, there's
been times like wrote a review

and then I did the word count.

I was like, oh my gosh, how did
I write over like 2000 words?

Like, I was like, this, this
is like, not nearly enough.

I was like, I hope I made 500.

Then I saw that number.

I was just like, what?

So it was really hard.

So it was really hard, like go
back and like cut things out.

But I mean, you have to in order
to kind of fit that parameters.

And so, um, I would say it does feed into
that because I was reviewing the Hawkeye,

uh, episodes every week it was coming out.

So I was doing that for comic watch.

And as you all know, it was also creating
a one-shot episode for our podcast.

I'm doing my own review for that.

And so there was a lot
of overlay where as.

Highlighting points for, uh, the
review article for comic watch.

I was also carrying that
over to the podcast episode.

Um, but again, you kind of have to write
it differently because the written word

is very different than the spoken word.

And so you kind of get the outline in
the thought process a little bit, um,

and you do have to adjust it, um, to
fit the medium as well, too, because

again, writing a review for comic
Watts is very different than a podcast

when you have your own structure and
all that, and, and you know, format.

And so the outline is something
that kind of does carry over and you

can carry over some of the things
that you've written, all that.

Um, but you do have to do a little
bit of adjustment, but with that being

said, it's just a lot of great practice
to kind of hone in on that skill.

And I think improves us.

Uh, podcasters as well too, because
you know, we have the right show

notes and, you know, it's it, you
know, podcasts is not just about, you

know, putting something out there.

You have to be on a lot of social
media channels and you have to

know how to write good show notes.

And, you know, if you're really
into SEL, you have to know

how to do that as well, too.

And so, um, I think writing,
uh, reviews for comic Watts has

really helped with that as well.

So.

Jude: Oh, yeah, I can definitely
see the connection between those

tray is the creative genius here.

Like he just is like,
that's just what he does.

And he's so good at it.

Well, thank you

Sean: Trey.

If you're the one that do
the videos, I got to say, I

really enjoy your guys' videos.

I think it's really high quality
and it's really well done.

It's professional looking.

So yeah, it's really, I'm really
impressed and I think it's great.

So definitely great work,
um, doing that stuff.

So I really enjoy

Trey: it.

Oh, thank you so much.

Yeah, those, those have
definitely been fun too.

Sean: Yeah.

Yeah, they're really good.

I really like them.

Yeah.

Thanks

Jude: a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Saying thank you.

But again, Trey's, the board

Sean: comes in and takes all
the credit, like you're welcome.

You know,

Trey: listen, I offset it by not
sending him the Google outline for

Sean: a little bit of passive aggressive.

Trey: Oh man.

Well, seriously, all of that is fantastic.

And I really appreciate you taking the
time to, to let our audience know, because

it's clear to see that a passion is the
engine that drives your creative work.

And I think that really
shines through man.

So yeah, I appreciate that.

Yeah.

So if you're interested, make sure
that you're falling Sean at the Sean

Hoke on Twitter, as well as at caption
life on both Twitter and Instagram.

And I said it earlier, but I want
to make sure that people know

it is comic hyphen watch.com and
all of these will be in the show.

With that being said, though, if
you downloaded this episode, then

you know, we're going to be talking
about our Hawkeye season one.

Wrap-up so this is going to be a
chance for us to talk about the

series as a whole, uh, talk about
the things we liked, the things we

didn't like as well as storylines
that we feel have lingering threads.

So to do this, we are going
to be talking spoilers, which

calls for the spoiler zone.

So you're going to hear an audio cue
and on the other side, it'll be fair

game for all spoilers in the MCU.

We'll see.

On the other side

and we're back.

So, Sean, I mentioned this to you earlier
when we were swamping DMS, but it, I

think this is the first time that we've
had somebody on for the wrap-up episode.

And it just so happens that this is their
favorite show of the Disney plus show.

So far.

So as I'm about to ask what you
liked about Hawkeye overall, I am

genuinely excited to, to hear you
follow your bliss in, in stating

what it is that you liked about

Sean: their show overall.

Yeah, definitely.

So, you know, just like what you
said, this is my favorite Marvel

show that they produced so far in.

And I got to say like, it's really
tough because all the shows, even

the ones that I wasn't a big fan of,
um, all of them were really great.

And I think we're top tier
in terms of production.

So even the ones that I was just like,
you know, this is not my kind of.

I can't really look at it and say that
it was a bad show necessarily, you know?

And so they're, so they're all really
high quality shows, but I, for me

personally, Hawkeye has been my favorite
one that they've created so far.

Um, for a lot of reasons I'm
probably going to get into it.

So, uh, stop me at any point for
like, you know, three hours in and

we're like, okay, we haven't gotten
to our next point yet, so sorry.

Um, but you know, there's a lot of
reasons why I enjoy the show and as

a comics fan, one of the main reasons
why I really enjoyed the show, and this

has been one of my favorite is that
it's primarily inspired by the, uh,

fractional Hollingsworth run called
Hawkeye the saga Barton and Bishop.

Right.

And, uh, this one was really fascinating
because I, I didn't read this until about

maybe two, three years ago when I was
reading through this on Marvel unlimited.

And I can't remember why I decided
to read, uh, This first issue.

And so I remember reading it,
um, and it was like the first

issue that they had that run.

And I was never been somebody that's
been too interested about Hawkeye.

Um, oh, now I remember actually by,
by read somewhere that historically,

um, Hawkeye has been, uh, deaf
or went deaf and hard of hearing.

And as you both probably know,
um, I'm actually someone that

was born with a hearing loss.

So I was born with like,
um, 25% loss in both ears.

And so when I heard about that,
I was like, oh, that'd be really

cool to kind of, you know, see
how they did that in the comics.

And so I read this issue and
I, it was one of the few runs I

just could not stop breathing.

They like couldn't, you know, put it down.

So I, I was reading this on Marvel
unlimited, so I couldn't really actually

put it down cause it was my tablet.

So I couldn't like swap out the next
issue I had to hit read next this year.

Right.

So I wasn't physically actually
putting anything away and swapping it

out, but like every time I got done
with it, like I just kept going to

the next issue next issue, because it
was just a really well-written story.

The art was fantastic, in my opinion,
I think aha does a great job with it.

Um, but it was just a great story overall.

And then when I saw the trailer for the
Hawkeye series, it was just like watching

your comic book, come to life because it
was a lot of inspiration from that run.

And so, um, so that's one of the
reasons why it's been my favorite.

Um, the other reasons, uh, as
I mentioned before, is that I

am somebody that has hearing.

This show has great representation
for those of the hard of hearing

and the deaf community, as well as
people with disabilities, because we

saw that echo has a, as an amputee.

I think her right leg is amputated.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And what's interesting enough is that,
um, the character echo and the comics

isn't amputee, she is deaf and she
is a native American, just like the

actress, but the actress is amputee.

And I thought, what was great about
the showrunners is that instead of

hiding that fact, they actually just
wrote it in as part of her character.

And I think that was a great way to
be able to have those conversations

and so representation, uh, for
another community and be able to

give them screen time and to have a
conversation as a community, as a whole

to talk about like what that means.

And, and the fact that, that wasn't
something that held her back.

And she's not just, you know,
identified by, you know, what

she's not able to do, but.

The fact that she's still able to,
you know, kick Hawkeyes, but, you

know, it's just something that I think
it was great to see on the screen.

Right.

Um, and as I mentioned,
echoes native Americans.

So I, I, I can't remember if we had
a lot of representation in the MCU

with native Americans, but, um, yeah.

And so I think this is probably
one of the first ones that we have.

Um, and so we have great
representation there.

Um, I could keep going, but if
you want me to stop and pause,

Jude: I was just gonna jump in
for a second and just say like,

one of my favorite scenes was
when, uh, Kate Bishop broke into.

That goes house or apartment and the alarm
went off and like, they didn't know, but

me as an audience member, I didn't know.

And we talked about this on our,
on our episode review of this one,

but like, I didn't know either.

And just, and just kind of when it,
when it came out or when, when they

realized, and it was like, it just showed
kind of my own worldview and how they

were able to play into that, you know?

And just like, no one said no ones,
the majority of the people aren't

going to realize that see alarm.

Right.

You know, cause that's just
not what they're used to.

That's not what you're seeing.

Um, you know, and, and, and I love that,
that they were able to play into that.

There, I love the way that they
used the mix of not just sign

language, but the, the subtitles.

With the lip reading and when she
looked away, it faded out like you just

like, you really got a sense of, of,
or a glimpse maybe of that experience.

And that was just really phenomenal for

Sean: me.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

And what I love about, um, all of
that is that even shows they did

a great job of showing like just
the diverse experiences with the

deaf and hard of hearing community,
because Clint was not born deaf.

And so, you know, he had a hearing day
because if he didn't have it, he was deaf.

Um, but I think what was interesting
is that you saw he no new American sign

language, but not enough to have like
a full conversation with echo without,

you know, help or anything like that.

And I think that's, you know,
pretty accurate for someone

who, uh, was born with hearing
and then became deaf later on.

Um, but you're right.

They did a great job of
visually representing what.

Audio experience sounds like, and I
got to say, I got to give a special

shout out to the audio engineering
team who did this because they get a

phenomenal job of showing, uh, showing
of audibly, um, giving that experience

to the audience members, what it's like
to have a hearing aid and what it's

like to be deaf, because I think a lot
of people assume that if you're deaf,

that means that you can't hear anything
and that's not necessarily the case.

You can still get like vibration sounds.

So when you, when you see it from
Maya's perspective, that's why the

audio never really cuts out completely.

You still feel or hear a little
bit of a rumble or, or, um, you

know, murmur and things like that.

And that is a, a pretty accurate, uh,
experience from what I understand.

Um, and then for someone who has
a hearing aid, like I grew up

with hearing aids and so whenever.

Clint took the hearing aid out.

I was just like taking me back to
second grade because that's exactly

what it sounded like when I was
taking my hearing aid out, you know?

So they did a phenomenal
job of representing that.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

Jude: Yeah.

Trey: Yeah.

I definitely agree with you, you know, you
keep coming back to this representation

and I can't agree more like the fact that.

It wasn't just like, Hey, let's get
representatives from the different

communities and put them on screen.

They walked us through those experiences,
like Jude was saying with the apartment

and the, and the alarms that went off
with the flashing and leveraging our own

experiences to enhance the story that way.

So not only was it an educational for
someone like me, I'll speak for me,

like of not having that worldview.

It added to the narrative by
putting us in the shoes of people

like my, or people like Clint.

And one of the scenes, I think that stands
out for me is that that scene in KB toys

where Maya is, is speak or communicating.

Clint.

And she is under the
impression that he can sign.

And once she realizes he can't, that's
when Kasi steps into interpret for her.

But that bridge of understanding
it created in that moment of her

wanting to communicate that way.

I think it helped deepen who she is,
because up until that point, it was,

oh, here's just your antagonist.

Oh, here's an interesting insight into her
world and the way that she views things.

And it's just, they, like I said, just
to circle back, it wasn't that they

were just representing people on screen.

They were really putting on a
demonstration of what that life is like.

And I, I really enjoyed that as well.

Jude: I'd say on top of that,
just that also the view that

she had of you see this as.

I don't, I don't know problem to be fixed
as the right way to put it, but because,

because you've had the hearing, right.

You just assume I got to have this
hearing and you're missing out on what

you can gain from it that she had to
learn from a very young age, you know?

So prompting that conversation, I think
was another, it was a really good ad.

Sean: Definitely.

Yeah.

Well, and I think, um, you
know, what's interesting is.

When the terminals came out, they
talk about Maccari, who's the actress

that plays her is death and how there
was a rise in interest in learning

American sign language, because of that.

And I wonder how many people have also,
you know, watching this show would like to

learn American sign language, uh, because
this show, and I wouldn't be surprised if

it went up, um, because as well too, but
what I really appreciate is that when I

was listening to Kazi during the signing,
I wonder if the actor who played him a.

Has had experience or just got training
on how to do it, but he did a really good

job of speaking like a, um, interpreter.

And what's interesting is that I don't
think a lot of people realize that with

American sign language, it's not just
knowing how to, um, sign with your hands.

But part of the communication is
all body language communication.

So it's not just being able to sign
things, but to also physically,

uh, express like some of those
emotions and kind of like really

lean into that as well too.

And I think they did a really good
job of kind of demonstrating that.

Um, you know, and again, I think
I remember talking about this when

I thought it was odd at first that
they had Clint learn, uh, American

sign language because usually people
who, um, go deaf don't realize.

Learn American sign language,
unless it's like really detrimental.

And it seemed like Clint was okay
with having a hearing aid, um, and

being able to hear things fine.

Um, but I was, I was speculate.

I was like, I wonder if that's how
they're going to tie it in with echo

because she's deaf in certain up.

Like that's how they make that tie
and make that connection, but also

kind of show the very experiences of
people who are hard of hearing and

part of the deaf community is that
it's not all, you know, the same as,

so it's like even when you have that
representation, being able to show that

diversity within that representation,
I think is a really great one here.

Trey: So it's not necessarily
just a binary thing, but a

spectrum of different experiences.

Sean: Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

That's exactly right.

Trey: And, and, you know, you mentioned
the, it's not just the signing with

American sign language, but that body
language communication as well, uh,

you know, circling back to Alika clocks
as Maya, you know, that was something

that was prominent every time that she
had very emotional scenes, because the

death experience is part of her life.

It's an authentic part of who she is.

That level of, of communication in those
scenes, I think hit that much harder,

like the way that she was able to,
to show that, that look on her face.

Like it just, it underscored
those scenes for me.

Sean: Right?

Oh yeah.

I agree.

Another

Jude: thing that I really liked about
this was they, the way they worked the

action sequences, I'm a particularly,
I'm thinking of like episode three, a

and that one sequence, but I thought all
of them were really well choreographed.

Uh, just really well.

Well, I will say that the F the finale
on the ice, I thought it was your kind

of your typical action, but other than
that, the, the moving in the car, the

bridge, um, the action of Yulaina and
Kate through the offices, then kind of

that tracking camera, all of those things
were something that just the overall show.

I just really, really enjoyed
how they were able to present

it, because it had that.

It makes me think of winter soldier, just
that what the Russo brothers did there

with that, that handhelds kind of close up
to the action to really make you feel it,

as opposed to this big wide shot, right?

Sean: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, th the action scenes were very,
um, very cinematic and what you see in

the MCU, and just, like you said, it's.

Really wide a variety of the kinds of
action sequences that you got from those.

And, and I agree with you.

I think, you know, episode three was
fantastic with the whole scene when

they were fighting in the tracksuit
mafia's, uh, you know, headquarters

and then, you know, going into the car
chase and like, it just had a little

bit of everything for that action.

I absolutely loved that scene where,
um, Clint Barton does that flip over the

stairwell and then he's on his side, but
60 arrow that hits, uh, Kasi and, and,

um, uh, cuts the restraints on Kate.

Because I remember when I first
saw that scene, not, not fund

the episode, but we saw trailer.

You saw him like sideways.

I remember thinking like,
that is really weird.

Like why do they have him sideways?

Because everything up to that point was
just a standard, like 16, nine ratio

of like what you see in the movie.

But then it's just like, is
that like an editing mistake?

And then when you saw that.

Oh, my God, it makes so much sense.

And that is awesome.

Yeah.

And I will say that the access
sequence on the rooftop, like what

you were talking about, I think
was really fantastic because it

integrated a lot of different things.

Cause they, you know, there's essentially
two locations that they were shooting

from and they did a good job of like
cutting back and forth between the two

different fights that were going on.

Um, the one complaint I did have about
the accident scene was that there was one

point where, um, Maya Lopez was kind of
like on her side and she kits, uh, she

kicks Kate and then somehow Kate goes
flying over that, like opening in the

rooftops where you think she's going to
like fall in there, but she ends up like

hitting the other side and fall safely.

But that was like a, a,
almost like a seven foot.

Uh, distance from where she
was kicked to where she landed.

And I was like that that's, this
seems odd because Maya Lopez

does not have, you know, super
strength or anything like that.

And from the way she kicked he's
like that wouldn't make sense, like,

you know, physically or from the law
of physics or anything like that.

Um, so that's the one thing I thought was
a little bit odd, but other than that,

like all that, the whole entire scene,
that tight fighting was really good too.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Jude: no, that's not to me too.

Cause the, the odd part of that was like
the way she landed on her back and I

get, you want to have that dangerous.

You might fall.

Oh, you're pushing that a little
for people that don't have a

super straight, sir, you know?

Right.

Yeah.

Sean: I will say this.

I was on another podcast with
paperweight entertainment.

We were talking about that.

And someone actually suggested like
maybe, uh, Maya had a, um, like a

hydraulic spring activated, um, um,
uh, prosthetic that may be, you know,

kind of gives her like a little power,
like a little boost to their kick.

I was like, now I could buy that.

I think that'd be really
cool if that was cool.

Trey: You know what?

I'll go one step further, you
know, I'm personally not this.

But I saw a lot of complaints
on social media about like, oh

man, kingpin's way overpowered.

Now he was just flinging Cate
all around that toy store.

What if we find out that it's
neither of these, uh, characters

that are super strong, but Kate is
just super light, like that's her.

Sean: Oh yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's, that's interesting
about the whole king pin fight scene

as well too, because I think everybody
was comparing that scene to what you

saw the Netflix series of kingpin.

Right.

And in the Netflix series is really more
realistic and it's not super powerful.

You know, people can actually achieve.

And kingpin was definitely, I mean,
the fact that the man, you know, pretty

much goes on the scale from being
blown up from a bomb underneath him

and is able to walk away from that.

Like, you know, that's
not realistic at all.

And so I know there's been a lot of
controversy of is this actually the same

king pen, even though Vincent Denofa has
said, you know, they they're treating it

as it is, or is this really, you know,
a variant king pin or even a scroll

and somebody has suggested as well too.

So yeah.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

I, I agree with you, Trey.

I think it's a very different
one than we saw from, uh, for

the Netflix series for sure.

Um, but part of that is that, you know,
the Netflix series is, is more, you

know, matured and darker and you can't
really do that on a Disney channel show.

Right.

But, you know, I, I think the fact
that, you know, it's a huge difference

in terms of like physical abilities.

Um, you know, it does kind of make you
pause and think about, you know, is

this actually the same king pin or not?

So, yeah.

Trey: Yeah, man, I'm not going to lie.

You're not wrong.

But hearing you referred to this
as Disney channel shows, like just

had me shaking in my seat of like,
wow, like you just blew my brain.

Sean: Oh yeah.

Well, and that's why I was never
worried about Clint be killed off.

Cause I know a lot of people
were theorizing that that's

what's going to happen.

And some people were really convinced.

I know it's not going to
happen for two reasons.

One, the last episode is happening
right before Christmas and there,

and Disney is not in the business
of killing off a beloved character.

Who's trying to get back home to
his family right before Christmas

be known as Disney ruined
Christmas for everybody in the MCU.

Right?

Jude: No, you're a hundred
percent right on that, you know?

Well, it's, it's one of those things that.

You know, and I know we're still in
that first section of the outline,

but, but it's, it's one of the
things that I always go back to the

whole, just think about the story.

Think about how many episodes you
have the story they're trying to tell.

And I know we'll get into it a little
bit later, but that's, that's why I

was convinced that Laura Barton was
an agent and stuff and, and Y how I

would now that road of like, okay,
we probably won't see Fisk, like,

are we going to get somebody that big
in the end and something like this?

And then that's kind of how I convinced
myself, like, we're not going to get this,

you know, uh, you can just, you know, we
have that media vocabulary built in and

you can kind of figure out some pieces.

Yeah.

Trey: You know, I want to circle back to
something you said earlier to lead into

one of the things that I liked overall
about Hawkeye, uh, do you mentioned.

Uh, well, you compared this to the winter
soldier and what the Russo brothers

did as far as action goes, uh, to go
out even further on that limb as well.

I think that the Hawkeye series
for Clint did what winter

soldier did for captain America.

Uh, and I say that being
a huge captain America.

I can admit he was a little cheesy
in the first Avengers, but I still

liked him, but it wasn't until winter
soldier that I think that people started

looking a little bit more like, oh,
okay, this is, this is a really cool

character, you know, a little bit
deeper than I was given credit for.

And that I think is what the
Hawkeye series has done for.

Uh, you know, I mentioned it a little
bit last week when we were doing our

episode with Tara, I have loved watching
just the meta conversation go from people

being like, oh, I don't really care
about Hawkeye to being able to name him.

Clint Barton.

Now I think that's always
a very telling sign.

Whenever it comes to the fandom because
I've seen it with black widow to Natasha,

uh, captain America, to Steve Rogers.

Like that's such a cool bridge to watch,
uh, or such a cool gap to watch be bridge

in the fandoms and all that, just to
lead into the thing that I liked overall.

You know, so often when we talk
about these MCU shows the thing or

shows or movies, the thing we say
is, oh, it's expanding the universe,

it's expanding this and that.

Like, it's, it's making it bigger.

The key to Hawkeye.

And the thing that I think I liked
overall is it deepened the universe.

And I think that is something that is
what I will continue to beat the drum

for of this series, because it gave us
a deeper look into Clint's life, uh,

introduced, uh, a better civilian view of
what it's like to be in this MCU world.

Uh, it introduced a more grounded.

Antagonists section with the track
suit mafia, even if they were comical,

but it even built on that with people
like Maya and Kasi and kingpin.

So the Hawk show, I don't think was
telling a complex story, but for the

most part, it told it really well.

And I think that's what I
really liked about this series.

Sean: Yeah, I really like how you
said it deepened the universe.

Like I never thought about that way,
but that's exactly what it did for a

forklift Barton and, and even, you know,
introducing Kate Bishop, it does that

same thing where it doesn't, um, have
that whole, there's a universal worldwide

threat that's happening, but there's like
a street level, um, thing where, you know,

it's not going to impact like what happens
in the movies necessarily, but it's still

a great story that you're going to want
to watch it because it's done so well.

Like what you said, Trey.

And I think it gives a lot
of great insight to Clinton,

especially what the aftermath of
what he's experiencing everything.

Cause I don't think that, you know, with
the exception of, uh, Wanda vision, you

know, we don't get a whole lot of insight
in terms of how people are dealing with.

You know, that sort of loss
that happen after end game.

And I think they just did a fantastic
job of being able to tell that story,

especially through the eyes of Clint,
who's struggling with, you know, what he

had to lose, you know, with his family.

Then he had to lose Nat in order to
get his family back and how even like

this, um, you know, whoever wrote
the school or they did a fantastic

job of when they were there talking
about, or even alluding to Nat.

Cause there's a couple of times where
they're not even talk about that,

but when he saw Kate Bishop like
fall over the roof and you know, it

was clearly, he was thinking back to
cause he was saying, no, no, no, no.

I was waiting for him to say like,
not again, because I can imagine, he's

just thinking like, you know, this is
what happened with Nat and as Kate's

laying there, they, uh, brought in
the score from board mere underneath

it to kind of support and give you
that cue of like, you know, this is.

It mostly is happening here.

And I think that, you know, that was just
a really great way to tell that story.

And I think you're right trays that
it deepens it and that these shows

are going to be a great way, gives
them a great opportunity to kind

of dive deeper into things that we
don't capture in the MCU as films.

Jude: Oh yeah.

And even like, Elaine, I loved
Yulaina in this, but like that

small part where at the same thing,
you got to know a little bit.

More about her.

Um, and so you had that, that depth.

I liked it it's very brief, but I
liked, it was kind of weird, but going

back to New York, 2012 and seeing, and
seeing the impact that it had on Kate

and, and that story and, and how that
impacted her, how, what happened, um,

with her family dad died, what did her
mom have to do with being a widower,

you know, um, and setting all that up.

Um, so even the wall, that
was a small part of it.

I, I like that seeing those big
events from other people's eyes.

Trey: The fact that, that
it's the catalyst for Kate and

everything that she wants to do.

Like that's, I think that's huge.

And in plays into building
that world as more believable.

Jude: Yeah.

Well, and you know, they gave
us the, I think that character,

the MCU with the most.

Depth of all Jack, um, you know,
like just layer after layer.

Uh,

Sean: but at the end of the day, like
Jack is what you see is what you get.

Like, we were just putting on like, what
we think is actually happening, but yeah,

but Jack was just pretty much there.

There's no secrets behind that guy
other than he was a really good fencer.

Right.

Like he wears his heart
on his sleeve that way.

Yeah.

I loved it.

Yeah.

Trey: You know, I talked about it and
I know this is going to sound weird

cause we're in the positive section
of this outline, but you know, I

talked about how disappointed it was.

Cause I wanted more from that actor,
but if we get more of Jack being the

petty superhero, he was when he was.

Uh, or Monda seventh about like, oh,
you peed yourself at the Hamptons.

I wouldn't be so happy because
that is such a funny angle of

just somebody who wants to be a
superhero, but is so petty about it

Sean: too.

Like a seven year old of all

Jude: right.

Trey: Oh

Sean: no.

It's like no man, woman or
child is saved from Jack and

Trey: it's so.

Again, I'm not gonna, I'm
not gonna call too much cause

it's a superhero show, right?

Like realism sometimes
goes out the window.

But it is funny to me how I
mentioned with hot guy, because his

choice of weapon is so grounded.

It ended up being the most horrifying
because he was shooting people with arrows

and to watch them go flinging backwards,
which is really brutal on that same

token, watching Jack go out there with a
sword and just start swiping at people.

And then his final scene with
like, oh, I got blood on my tie.

There is no layers to him, but to
being a superhero and a swordsman.

Sean: Oh yeah.

Well indeed.

You know, the comic
history of that character.

I do not,

Jude: I know that he's the swordsman.

Um, but I don't know
a whole lot about him.

Sean: So, so in the comics.

Yes.

Just like what you said, Jude.

He is the swordsman, but he was
actually the one that trained hot

guy, Clint Barton here in the comics.

And so, yeah.

And, and so I had a theory for while
after episode three ended, when it

ended with, um, uh, Jack holding
the Ronan sword up to his neck.

I had a theory because of the
way that they showed Ronin, um,

killing off the tracks of mafia.

My, uh, you know, seeing
her father get killed.

I had a theory that maybe.

Jack and Clinton knew each other because
of that back history, but it turns out

they took a different approach with it.

But it's really interesting because
that character does so up in the,

um, the saga of Barton and Bishop
that talked about earlier and he's in

there for like one, maybe two issues.

But, um, but that's what I really
love about the MCU is that they take

the characters that already exist
in the comics and they might be

a hundred percent faithful to it.

I don't want to say a hundred percent
cause everyone's going to have issues

with it, but like, you know, 90%, mostly
faithful to it, or they might just

take a completely different approach.

I love what they did with Jack here
because I think it makes sense.

I think he, he's a really interesting
character in this way and I think

it, it fits really well for the
overall story here as well too.

And I think it's just, it was really a
delight to see him in this kind of, um,

relationship with, uh, with Kay and,
and Clinton, everybody else as well too.

Jude: Oh, yeah.

Like they, they, they did a really good
job of playing into God, the stereotypes

that we're used to seeing visually, I
keep going back to that, that vocabulary

that we've learned over the years,
because my wife wouldn't have watched.

It was just like, no, he's a creep.

He's the bad guy it's going to happen.

He's the bad guy.

He's a creep, you know, and I was
already ahead and she's catching up and

I'm just like, no, he's just doofus.

Like, he's just a doofus, you know?

But, but it is, they did such a good job.

Like you said, the sword, it's like,
okay, maybe he's not a doofus, but then

he's like, oh, you're, you're the Archer.

It's like, now you're just okay.

You know, so yeah, it was just it having
characters like that is really, uh,

fun and, and none of is really fine.

It's one of the things trays I try
and I have talked about it in some of

our episodes and even the movies is
Marvel has this tendency sometimes, uh,

No undercut, you know, moments with,
with this comedy, this, you know, this

levity and it's like, no, let that,
you shouldn't let that moment breathe.

Um, and this series, I think, did that
well, uh, they ha they did it well with

Jack's character where you had those
funny moments and that levity, but

like when hock, I went to the Memorial.

You know, and he's, and he's talking
and stuff like I was waiting for when

the person next to him is going to
make a comment, you know, that talk,

I didn't know, or whatever didn't know
because he took his hearing it out.

Uh, but they didn't do that.

They left it.

So that was what I was also another
thing that was really cool about Jack

is his, the way they were able to
use them for that, for that comedy.

But, but still let those really
important moments breathe.

Trey: Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

You know, on social media, we put out
the question about like what lessons we'd

like to see the MCU adopt from Hawkeye.

And we're going to get to that question
later, but I did want to jump in here

and say Jude off of what you just said.

Uh, Ben dot Maddie on Instagram.

That was his answer.

They said, you know, put the characters
first and let the more serious moments

sit instead of making a joke right after.

And, and I couldn't agree more with
him and with what you said, because

I think this is one of the more
emotionally intelligent shows and

the way they let the emotion be the
moving force, rather than, than having

to make a joke afterward, because
I'm thinking of that Memorial scene.

Um, and probably one of the
biggest highlights of the series.

Is the conversation where Kate was
interpreting for him, for his son and

how much that just knocked everybody
over with how impactful that was.

Um, and, and to, to tie it to what
I was saying earlier, not only does

it deepen who we know of Clint, but
it deepens what it is our heroes

are actually giving up to, you know,
and, and the medicines provide our

entertainment, but in the narrative be
the hero that they are allotted for.

Sean: Yeah.

Well, and I agree with both of
you, cause I think what they did

with Clint Barton, this show was
really great and how they did that.

And just like what you said, they
didn't throw the comedy of there at

the expense of those serious moments,
but cleanse character in the show had

a lot of serious moments and had a lot
of great comical moments as well, too.

That, you know, you can, you can marry
both of them in the same, um, story with

the same character and have a really great
show or really great movie by allowing

those moments to happen without having to
take, you know, make it lighter because of

that, because just like we've been talking
about it's, it's those emotional scenes

that we saw with his conversation with
his son and, and Kate having to interpret

that, um, you know, th the conversation
that he and Kay had about Clint losing

Nat in the, you know, the shot he didn't
take, it was the best shot he ever took.

Right.

And, and the Memorial and things like
that, like, those are really heartfelt

emotional scenes that, you know, had
you made a joke at the end of it.

I think what had just
completely erase what Clint was

experiencing in the whole show.

And I think they did a great job
of creating that balance there.

Jude: Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Especially that moment
there with the best shot.

We ever took was the one.

He didn't such a fantastic moment.

Trey: And if anything, it feels like
the reverse of what we're talking

about because we're talking about
moments being undercut with humor.

That whole scene is humor and leads
into the seriousness and the way

they did it is you saw Clint become
comfortable and he wanted to open up.

And then he's like, no, no,
I can't talk about this.

So it's like, it's almost
like it was the show.

And I don't know this for sure.

I'm just speculating, but it was almost
like the show was aware of that and it

was leaning into like, no, we're going
to let the emotion drive this scene.

Sean: Right.

And what I really love about
that scene Trey is that.

We see him struggle with how he
lost his family and that he was

really heartbroken over that he was
missing his family and he was really

struggling with the loss of Nat.

And then when Kate figures out that
he's Ronin, Jeremy Renner did a great

job of just switching mental attitudes
because all of a sudden he's shut down.

And he was like, people had
to handle it their own way.

And he was like, almost like
not remorseful of what he did.

And I think is because if he had opened
up those flood gates, he would just

probably break down because he had to
like figure out how to compartmentalize.

But I think Jeremy Renner just did a
great job of expressing those different

kinds of diverse ways of how people
handle those things mentally with, with

grief and loss and things like that.

And, and I think it was just phenomenal.

Like that whole scene was.

Absolutely phenomenal from an acting
point of view that has such great range

from, you know, not just being able
to do comedy and emotional heartfelt

scenes, but within the emotional
heartfelt scenes, they were able to do,

you know, even more range with that and
go even deeper with that as well, too.

So I, I, I love that scene
as well for that reason.

Trey: Yeah.

And, and on that topic of Jeremy
Renner's acting Hailee Steinfeld and

just the, the seriousness and the
reserved nature that, that, eh, that

Clint is bringing is brought out by
the earnest and sincere nature of

Kate that Hailee Steinfeld and brings.

And I thought they were such a
great pair on screen together.

Sean: Yes.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

They definitely capture that banter
between Barton and Bishop that we

see in the comics and it definitely
sold on screen and, and they were

just fantastic with each other.

Like they're, you know, I know
I, you know, we'll probably talk

about this, like, you know, Kate
and Elena were great on screen.

Um, and I think that if we had never had
Kate and Elena, because that's, what's,

you know, kind of taking the social media
by storm with that relationship, um,

before that moment, Kate and Kate and
Clint's relationship was this fantastic

because of that budding partnership
that they were able to, that the actors

were able to display on a screen.

I think they did a fantastic
job is that as well, too.

So.

Jude: Yeah.

Yeah, it was, it was just so natural.

Uh, and again, the way they were able to
have that mentor, mentee relationship,

you know, you just kind of, you felt it,

Sean: right?

Yeah.

Oh yeah,

Trey: absolutely.

I think in episode two, I called
it the unsolicited pupil and

I can't help, but remember the
scene where Clint begrudgingly

gives her his cell phone number.

It's like, okay.

In case of emergencies only,
and then as he's walking away,

she's like, I'll call you.

And he's just like walking away, dejected.

Right.

Such

Sean: a great pairing.

What was genius in that scene?

Is that.

The character.

Kate knew him well enough already
to know that she was, she did like,

she texted from his number to her.

So that way she had his number, right.

Or, yeah, cause that's where it was,
is like he gave her, he gave her

his phone to put her number in, but
he wasn't going to have her have

his number till she texted him.

Cause he knew already that
he was not going to do it.

So she just went ahead and did it anyway.

So yeah.

Oh, I love that.

Yeah.

It was just like, Kate is just, is
that annoying nuisance for Quinn's?

But, but, and there was such a great
way that, you know, it grows on him and

everything, but you know, just the fact
that she's able to think ahead, it's

like, I know what he's going to do.

And I want this I'm going
to make it happen basically.

And she keeps doing that
throughout the whole series.

I love it.

I always thought Hailee Steinfeld would
have been a great choice for Kate Bishop

and she absolutely nailed it with it.

So,

Trey: yeah, I think I saw this on
Twitter and one I'm going to butcher it

and the two, not being able to properly
credit it, but if I, if I come across

it I'll make sure it sends to link it.

But somebody said that.

Hailee Steinfeld to Kate Bishop
is what Robert Downey Jr.

Was to Tony stark.

And it's hard to, to full the full
throat support that because it's

only one entry, but what a heck of
an entry for Hailee Steinfeld to come

in and leave her mark on the MCU?

Because I think it is no secret.

She has quickly become a fan favorite
across the entirety of the MCU fandom.

Sean: Yes, definitely

Trey: in conjunction with Yulaina.

So I want to do, I want to take some
time real quick, cause we really

haven't talked about them that much.

Uh, Sean, do you have any favorite
scenes of Kate and Elena together?

Sean: Oh my God.

Trey: I'm still in the top
five mode from last week.

I'm trying to make people

Sean: pick.

Yeah.

I mean, and it's hard to pick one scene
because I think they've only had three

scenes together in the series, right?

The.

Rooftop, which wasn't a whole
lot of interaction at all.

Then when you Elena shows up in her
apartment and then their, their fight

scene set the hotel at the party.

And that was it.

Right.

And, and I got say, I think I really
enjoyed the apartment, uh, seen as

my favorite between Kate and Elena.

Um, for a couple of reasons is, is one.

It was great to kind of
see them have a really.

Uh, again, like wide spectrum of
kinds of conversations they had, like,

it was, you know, a mix of comedy.

It was a mix of emotional drama and
just, uh, you know, a little bit of like

anger and Elena having that, you know,
dramatic, uh, exit, you know, she's

become a poser, like she called that.

Right.

Um, but I, what I love about it is
that I've heard or read somewhere

that, um, when they filmed a scene, I
guess they just let Haley and Florida.

Do their thing in their
characters for like a long time.

And like, I guess they didn't take a
whole lot of direction from it and they

just had those conversations naturally.

So it just, they had a natural
relationship, um, that they, or rapport

with each other that they build that
just worked really well on screen.

And that's why everybody just
loves them because they were

just so fantastic to watch.

Like, if you can watch somebody ha like
watch two people have a conversation

for that long and be enamored by that.

I think that tells you what
great charisma they, those two

have with each other, you know?

Trey: Yeah, man.

And if that's true about the
improvisation of their scenes

together, That that's incredible.

And I can believe it, like the way
they work together is, is fantastic.

Like, I mean the whole, the box macaroni
and cheese seed like that, that is such

a natural conversation between them
two and, and the way that Kate was just

disgusted as Julina's pouring in that hot
sauce and just like going to town, like

it is again to come back to this word.

Authentic.

And, you know, earlier Jude had mentioned
that the action scenes were well done.

Um, the thing that I think
makes them so well done is the

ability to imbue narrative.

So it's not just action for
action's sake and right.

You know, I know that the scene in the
apartment isn't an action scene, but

the fact that there's so much meaning,
and that conversation going back and

forth about trying to basically have
Clint on trial, like you had a, Yulaina

attacking him and wanting to make her
case for why she wanted to kill him.

And Kate was putting the things
that Clint had taught her to.

And so I just, again, I thought it was
brilliant and to pair that with the scene

of them in the office building, as they
were fighting back and forth, um, that was

my setup for the action narrative part.

It speaks so much about who Kate is that
she has clearly outmatched and yet she

still keeps going at Elena and trying
to stop her from, from killing Clint.

Sean: Yup.

Oh yeah.

Well, and, and, and we see that
in all of her action scenes,

like just the stubbornness of,
you know, she doesn't care.

She's outmatch, he's not going to.

You know, just roll over
and play dead at all.

Like we saw that when she got thrown off
the building, you know, and she just kind

of grunts and went right back up to the
ceiling after Clint tells her to go home.

Right.

And, and I think that tells
a lot about characters.

Like, you know, even though she knows,
uh, well, and, and I don't know if she

knows, like she's probably still naive
at that point, because I remember that,

you know, in that same scene where she's
like, oh, I'm so glad I didn't kill you.

And you is like, oh, that's so funny
now thinking that you could kill me.

I think, you know, there's still that
naivete that goes along with it, but

the fact that she's stubborn and, and
ambitious and, um, like motivated and

committed to that, I think speaks a
lot about her character that we, we

see from the comics as well, too.

It really portrays on screen
very well with Hailee Steinfeld.

So, yeah.

Trey: Yeah.

You know, I can't help, but like,
I know this is always like a go-to,

but the, I can't remember exactly
the Congress, some loony tune, a

cartoon where it's the big dog.

Just keeping the little dog
at bay with her hand while the

little dog is just swinging.

That's a nutshell.

Sean: Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Definitely.

Trey: Well, I think unless there's any
more that might wrap up some of the

overall positive things we had to say.

We're going to move into some
of the disappointments that we

had for the Hawkeye series a and
starting with Jude this time.

Uh, what was, what are some of the things
that disappointed you about Hawkeye?

Jude: Uh, my biggest disappointment
was the treatment of kingpin.

Um, you know, and I know I talked about
an episode, just that that's really,

I think my, my, well, no, my biggest
disappointment is I didn't get two

more episodes cause I love the show.

Uh, but just, I, I can't, I
just thought that the, they

didn't quite land the financial.

Uh, now having said that if your first
episode you've downloaded of us, I feel

like this is my favorite Disney plus show.

And the finale is like one, B, two
Loki's, one, a finale, just like

just looking at the finale by itself.

Loki was finale.

It was so good.

We just got too much of kingpin.

You know, we've already mentioned
the pain blown up by the bomb and

all of that stuff, uh, for as big,
a name and big a character as he is.

And as big of name of an actor,
uh, that that's getting that's

reprising this role actually.

Um, I just thought they
could have done a better way.

Uh, I feel like you could have
accomplished the same things, wrapping

up Maya story in terms of like having
Kasi die and, but not my having to do it.

Um, but also I think
there's a little bit of me.

For me, at least not having
enough handholding on, on

understanding Causey's arc.

Uh, so like that was the
biggest disappointment,

Trey: you know, I, I can step into that
space with you, uh, because I think

it's pretty clear for anybody who's
been listening to our coverage and if

not, I'll get to it later, but there
was so much, I think about Maya's story

that felt like it didn't get to finish
as well as the Ronan aspect of Clint.

Uh, so those were, those were my
disappointments, but to talk about

what you mean with the handholding and
Kasi, uh, there were external knowledge

that I knew because of interviews
that frothy had about his character

Causey, where he mentioned that it was,
uh, that he was there and the karate

class with Maya when they were kids.

And so without that knowledge, I think
it's, it's, it's easy to miss the C thing.

Not saving, but like just the slow boil
of jealousy that Kasi had for Maya taking

over after her father had passed away.

And so without that context, I
think it is a little easy to see

why that fight was out of place.

And so, yeah, I just wanted to step in
and set that context for, for people who

didn't know that part about Kasi as well.

And really I'll even say this, uh,
because I was watching some videos

on, on Hawkeye to kind of prep for
this, you know, I think there it is

a mistake of the show that Kasi is
such a cloudy character because I saw

people refer to him as her cousin and
that they're, they're not related.

It's just, we didn't get a clear enough
picture of who caused he is not only

in relation to Maya, but I think in
some of the motivations of the show,

Sean: Yeah.

Well, and I think part of that confusion
is because they kept referring to

kingpin his uncles as well, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and there's, there's a lot of
confusion around that from a lot of

different angles because, um, in the
comics, and this is kind of probably

alluded to show as well, too, but just,
you know, just to your point, Trey, they

didn't really dive into it too much.

Is that in the comics, kingpin
actually adopted Maya as his daughter

when, um, when her father dies.

And so there's, so I could see some
people probably think of that they were

supposed to be cousins in that, um, in
that way, because they were probably

thinking that because Kasi is referring
to him as uncle and Maya's referring to

him as uncle that they're probably not
really brother and sister in that regard.

So I think the.

The term of endearment that they're
using, they're probably kind of threw

people off a little bit in terms
of, they're not quite sure what that

relationship is because of that.

Um, but I mean, I think you're right
in that, you know, there wasn't Kasi

story was probably one that didn't get
as much treatment as some of the other

ones, because I know, you know, up until
episode three, You know, he seemed like

he was a very ominous character because
in episode one, you see him, you know,

looking at Kate Bishop in the Ronin
suit when she's across the street.

And she just say, you know, pizza dog, um,
and you see his face for the first time.

And they kind of set up to be a very
ominous kind of looking experience.

And then when Clint refers to him
as the, uh, general manager of the,

you know, furniture store, right.

He's like, is that your guys' manager
again, he doesn't talk or anything.

And that whole scene is so he kind of
gives us ominous presence in there.

And then it just seems like it
kind of got glossed over because

they were trying to do a whole lot.

And I think it's probably one of
those things where just like what

you said, Jude, if they had two
more episodes, I think they could

extrapolate a little bit more.

If you both notice, but hock,
I kind of went into this

pattern of the first episode.

They went into the origin story of Kate.

Right, right.

And then the second episode picked
up right after the first episode.

And then when we get into the
third episode, it opens with

the origin story of Maya.

And then the fourth episode picks
up right after where it ends

with the, with the third episode.

So I think if there were to do
two more episodes, Kasi would have

been a great one for them to do
another origin story, to kind of

help develop that a little bit more.

Cause yeah.

Cause I think just like what you said,
I, you know, Kay is really relatively

new to the general population.

Uh, my Lopez is an Kasi, whereas
kingpin doesn't really need to have

that sort of origin story because
everybody kind of knows who he is on

a conscious on a, like a collective
conscious level because he's in so

many, um, stories and movies already.

But with these characters, you
kind of need that introduction.

I think you're right.

Is that Kasi didn't get
that sort of treatment.

Like the other ones did.

So.

Yeah,

Jude: well, and my mistake was I, I took
it as Kasi cared for Maya and not to say

that he didn't, but, and so the whole
idea where this should have been my life

and like you got what should have been.

Mine was just a weird flip for me.

And so that's why it's like, well, if
we rearrange where Maya goes to confront

Kasi and kingpin, and you have that whole
section and king decides to do kingpin

things at that moment and then Kasi steps
in, and then that would also kind of, I

guess, even prompt more motivation later
for echo, assuming that's working, Ben

shows up again, and I realized there's
this comic storyline that could be played

out here, but it just felt for this story.

It would have been
better to do it this way.

Uh, you could S I still feel like
they could have had Kate save her

mom from kingpin without having
to do that particular battle

again, because I know you want to
show that basic hero's journey.

Right.

I learned from the mentor, I have to show
now that in and take those lessons and

show on my own, in terms of scaling what
we're used to seeing with Marvel of like

the scaling up in powers and leveling
up Kate Bishop went from origin story

to way beyond what I think naturally
would've progressed right there from

what we're used to and that's, and
that's where it just kind of like, okay.

Um, and then again, kingpin is just
such a looming presence that they

could have, I think, had some patients
and held onto that a little longer.

Sean: Right.

Yep.

Yeah.

I think they definitely have some
plans for kingpin, like in the future.

Um, because the one scene that really
sticks out to me that I think is a bit

of a hint for us is when she shoots
kingpin with an arrow and then it just

like sticks in him and it seemed like
it doesn't phase and she just looks at

it as like, what, uh, I think that kind
of is a hint for us that something's

going on here that I honestly don't.

I honestly believe that this is not
the last time we've seeing kingpin.

I think he's going to show up again.

Yeah.

But I think we're probably going to
find out more either in enough, another

series or, you know, whether it's echo
or another movie or something like that.

Um, but yeah, I, I, um, yeah, yeah.

I see where you, where
y'all all going from that.

And, and, um, I, I think what they did
with kingpin, I think I I'll be honest.

I think the actually.

Did what they should've done because
well, you don't want to do is you don't

want to bring a character like that.

That ends up overpowering the entire
finale, uh, by having him be like the main

villain that they fight, um, at the end.

Right.

Especially when he has shown up
at this point, because then, you

know, from a screenwriting point
of view, like how do you make all

that fit and make that make sense?

And it's, I think what they actually did.

I, I, in my opinion, I think actually made
a lot of sense from not trying to have

the other stories, get overshadowed by,
um, putting a whole lot of attention on

kingpin, because then we probably wouldn't
have, um, as much of a emotional impact

with the resolution that we get from.

Uh, you Elena and Clint and some
of the other stories as well too.

But, um, but yeah, I definitely agree.

I think Kasi story is, um, something
that's a little bit of a kind of

scratching your head with that.

So

Jude: now on our finale episode, and I
throw this to Trey, Trey thought, and

actually I thought he was actually pretty
convincing, but they fumbled Clint store.

At the end here.

Trey: Um, yeah, so I, I don't know if
you were familiar with what I said in

that episode, Sean, but just to recap
it here, um, to me, the reason that

this wasn't my favorite Disney plus
show, despite it being so close, is

that the whole point, the origin point
for what they were doing with Clint

was that they were trying to make some.

Or he was trying to atone for what he did
as Ronan that was clearly looming over

his head at the beginning of the show.

And so naturally when you get to the
end, you want to have that resolved.

Right.

And I know there's no way that they can
actually make a men's for everything

he did as Ronan, because he did go
on a brutally Savage murder spree.

Right.

But I thought he was smart in the way that
they, they gave us an in with tying his

actions as Ronin to the life of Maya and.

The thing where it starts to fall apart
for me is in episode five, whenever

they have that confrontation with
Clint and Maya, it came across to me

that Clint was talking down to Maya.

There was never an, an ounce of
remorse or apology for what he did.

It was talking down to her
like, Hey, we're weapons.

And if we don't control
our anger, we get used.

And this is what happens.

If you come at me or my
family, again, I will kill you.

That just felt like in contrast
to so much of what they were

doing with Clint and trying to
humanize them and let him open up.

And I thought that
would've been such a great.

Moment a character growth moment
for him to really have that honesty

and sincerity with, with Maya.

And we ended up getting it in a way with
the way that he opens up to Yulaina.

It just, it felt like they missed
out on that closure with Maya.

And even in the finale, even though I
liked that episode a lot, it felt like

it was a missed opportunity that there
are zero scenes with Maya and Clint.

And that to me is a misstep because
it doesn't finish Maya story either.

Like so much of what was motivating
her was the death of her father.

And I don't need to get that closure
at the end of this show, but the

fact that we didn't get much progress
other than a hint at it being Kasi

felt like another misstep for me.

Uh, so that, that's what I would put as
my biggest disappointment of the show.

And, and to throw to you, I, I want
to know, I mean, do you feel that

way or do you have any points in the.

Sean: Um, I mean to, to your point, I,
I think, um, here's how I would kind

of frame it with that whole scene.

Cause, cause I, I agree with you
in that it would've been great

to see Clint show remorse for
killing, uh, Maya's father there.

Right?

Yeah.

Um, I, I think there's a couple of things
that probably the writers were probably

fighting up against is that if you have
that scene with Maya and showing that

sort of remorse, I think that probably
would have taken away the emotional

impact that we're trying to get with
Yulaina and Clint from when they talk

about Nat, uh, because if you have like
two of those kinds of moments with that

same character, like I think it tends to
get overshadow because they're kind of

similar in terms of that sense of remorse.

Um, but I think with Clint.

Here's the sense I get is that I think
it's less about him atoning and more

about him trying to put it behind him,
because I think it's, um, I, I think we

would love to see him kind of a tone,
but you know, at the same time he was

trying to kill like bad guys in his mind.

Right.

And so even though, you know, Maya's
father is like really great father

to Maya and everything like that.

And when you put it in context, like
there's still the tracksuit mafia and we

don't know what was going on at that time.

But I mean, there,
there's still criminals.

Did they deserve to be killed?

Probably not.

You know, but I, I still
agree with you, Trey.

I think that is something that they kind
of fell apart a little bit is that he, he

could have at least said that, you know,
at the time this is what I was facing.

And he made that connection about how
they're both weapons that were being

guided, you know, blinded by anger,
but he could have still a lease.

He didn't have to have like a heartfelt.

Reaction, but he still could have at
least acknowledged that what he did, you

know, affected her and shouldn't have
happened and at least acknowledged that.

And so I think I agree with you with
that trays, that there should have been

some sort of acknowledgement with that.

And I think that was a missed opportunity.

I don't know why they
didn't put that in there.

And I do agree, like it was kind
of odd because it almost seemed

like Maya's no longer mad at him.

And I get why, because, you know, even
though he killed him, he killed him.

She now knows that he
was ordered to kill him.

It wasn't just something that he
just did, you know, Willy nilly.

But at the same time, like I, I've
never experienced, you know, a loss of

a loved one from murder in that way.

I can't imagine that like someone
just kind of lets them off the

hook on that regard either.

So, but in terms of my biggest
disappointments there I say there are

four things, you know, ranging from
like just a small thing to, here's

probably my biggest disappointment.

Um, I will say the first thing.

I'll be honest, and this is probably
a hot take, but I was actually

disappointed with Rogers, the musical.

And here's why, and because I think
there's a lot of things that's really

interesting about that, that I kind
of find it interesting in terms of

why I think it was probably, I don't
want to say mishandled, but I think it

just didn't really impress me is one,
is that it's a, it's a musical about

an event that happened in New York.

That's probably, you know, still
fresh on people's minds about like

people probably died from that
event or, you know, their lives were

flipped upside down because of that.

And you're making a musical, that's
kind of making light of that.

Right.

But the biggest thing for me is that
have you two ever seen the Broadway show?

Trey: Uh, not an actual live
performance, like, well, like a

Jude: musical or like, like I've seen
stage production shows, not musicals.

They were not in New York.

I was, it was in London.

So

Sean: th it's like Broadway on London
or in London, something like that.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

So, so if you ever go to a Broadway
show or even go to a traveling Broadway

show because they have those, you'll
see that the theater production quality.

Like it's, I wouldn't be surprised
if their budget is almost, you

know, the same kind of budget as
what you see with the TV or film,

because it is professional looking.

It is really well done.

All the production theatrical and the
sound effects and special effects that

they do with all that is just top notch.

Um, and when I look at the costumes
that they use for Roger's a musical,

it legitimately looks like a high
school put on this play because

Thor's costume was or hoax.

Costume was literally a guy with
green face paint and a hoodie.

And ant man was a guy wearing
a baseball Jersey with the PIM,

like symbol on front of it.

Like I would have expected it to reflect
more of a Broadway show, especially

with the theater that they were,
it was actually a Broadway theater.

I was, I was kind of, I
guess, disappointed by that.

The other, I'll say my other three
things, I'll let you to chime in

whenever you want with, with all that,
but I'll just kind of throw these three

things out and then I'll step back.

But the other thing was, I was
really disappointed that they

didn't really do much about
Maya's native American heritage.

I love that they hone in on her,
uh, deafness and her relationship

with her father and everything
about her, but they did nothing

about her native American heritage.

And it was a missed opportunity
for me in episode three, where she

has that conversation with her dad
at bedtime, talking about dragons.

I'm like that would have been a great
way to introduce some sort of native

American folklore as part of that
conversation instead of dragons.

So it's just really, I thought
it was a huge missed opportunity.

I hope they rectified that in
the echo series that's coming out

later, but I really want to see that
become more of a focal point for

her character as much as I love Kate
Bishop and love Hailee Steinfeld.

I think by episode four, I was over.

Kate's maturity level
and her early over Clint.

And that's how I felt like it.

And I go back and forth on this
because I was just like, I, I get it.

You know, you're, you're, you're really
excited about him, but I think, you

know, when she goes to the library and
she's like, you know, I'm hock, I's

partner slash you know, best friend.

Like I was like, okay, that's
a little bit too much because

like, he's not even around.

And you're saying that, you know, But
at the same time, like when you put it

in perspective, like this series like
takes place in the span of a week.

So she's probably not going to come
down from that high for a while.

I think the next time we S we see
her in a season, she's probably

going to calm down a lot from that.

But yeah, I think for me, I
was like, uh, not sure how I

felt about her maturity level.

Trey: Uh, I guess I spoke too soon when
I said Kate Bishop had become a fan

favorite across the, you found them?

Sean: No, I actually, honestly,
she is still my favorite.

Like, I absolutely love
her and I love that.

That's like the only one thing.

And that's like a screenwriting,
like issue as opposed to a

character or, or acting thing.

I think Hayley nailed it in terms
of acting, but it's just, I think

it was just the way it was written.

Like that's the only issue I
had with that, other than that.

Fantastic.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, and the last thing they'll say I'm
actually really disappointed about is,

um, the watch belonging to Lord Bart.

Jude: I remember you, you were S
you tweeted something about that.

Uh, and I, and I was curious, and
definitely something I wanted to

ask you about, uh, to elaborate on.

Why, why was that a disappointment?

Yeah, so I,

Sean: so for me, There's like, I
think two or three huge issues that

I have with it is one is that what's
what's the, so what of that now?

Right.

So, okay.

We find out that she was Mockingbird
and that she worked for shield.

It's like, so what, like, like
where do we leave with that now?

Right.

And I can't imagine they're
creating a Mockingbird series,

you know, based off of this now.

And so it was just kind of
interesting, like all the things

they could have done about the
watch, that's what they led with.

And I don't know what, what that was
or what the attempt was other than

try to maybe connect it to how he
was married to, uh, Bobby Morris,

who was Mockingbird in the comics.

But what's interesting is that there
is a Laura Barton in the comics that

was married to Clint, but it was like
a different, it wasn't earth 6 1 6.

So it was a different universe.

So, I mean, that's the only
reason I think why they did that.

And I didn't think it was like
a good enough reason to do that.

The other reason that I was kind
of disappointed with that is that

it still doesn't make sense why
Maya and Fisk was after the watch.

And the first thing that people would
point out is that, well, you know, Clint

was Ronan, but I'll point out to him.

It was like, well, at the time, if it
was Maya trying to get the watch, my

didn't know that Clint was running.

Right.

Yep.

Right.

Well, Fisk new is running.

And, but in episode six, we hear Fisk
talking to Kazi about what's going on.

He said, there's Ronan on the loose.

And there's an Avenger after us, which
implies that he didn't know that they

were the same person at that time either.

So it still doesn't make sense
why they're after that watch.

So I think that was like a huge
story, like plot hole for me, that

just bothered me that they could
have done a whole lot of things.

And there was like, so
much focus on the watch.

And then like, this is
what they did with it.

I was just, that was like
the biggest let down for.

Yeah,

Trey: I'll go out there with you on that.

Like the, the, the Mockingbird stuff
I'm okay with, like, it goes more

to what I was saying in the positive
section about like, it, it just

feels like it deepens the world.

Like we don't have to go that far into
it, but we it's, it broadens the view.

But my problem with the watch is
the second thing you said in that

it felt like a pointless MacGuffin.

Yes.

And it feels like this is becoming a trend

Jude: called my girlfriends are pointless,

Trey: but you illustrated the
exactly what my problem was that.

Who wanted to watch, you
know, you spotlight white

couldn't be kingpin or Maya.

I was speculating that maybe it was
causing and that somehow he knew that

it was tied to Clint and he wanted
that as leverage to make sure that it

never came out, that he was the one who
ordered the hit on Maya's father, because

it would make sense why he was there.

And they had that shot of him
lifting up his mask and looking very

concerned now really realizing that
this had become a deeper problem.

But again, we unfortunately just never
got a broader look at who Kasi is

and what his motivations were, but,
uh, you're a hundred percent spot on

in that that watch felt like a weird
centerpiece that never became important.

Jude: It's one of those, like
you're in the writing and I, this

is what I feel like what happened.

You're in the writing room and you have
this Christmas story of dad separated

from family and how do we get them home?

And it, and that's, like I said,
that MacGuffin, that mechanism

that's that's makes it so important.

Um, just like the roading suit, the
suit itself felt like about a little

bit of the point of it was how do
we get Kate and Martin together?

You know, right.

At that point, it's like, okay, we're
going to, I love the LARPers, but we're

going to have to go see the LARPers.

Now they're going to have to do this.

It just, yeah, I agree on that sense.

Sean: Yeah.

Well, and LSA this dude, like you,
you bring up another good point that I

actually mentioned before on our podcasts.

Is that just like what you said?

The watch was almost needless
in this sense, because Clint had

already acknowledged that the
suit was tied to him, which means

it would be tied to his family.

And so the suit by itself is already
showing that the family is in danger.

So the watch didn't
need to be like in the.

Plot device in that aspect.

And then Trey, what you said about Kasi.

Like I would say even then that theory
still doesn't hold up about Kasi wanting

it because causing Clint didn't really
know who each other wore, because when

Clint talks about the informant, um,
it seems to imply that he never really

talked to the foreman directly, but that
the informant told kingpin, then kingpin

told Clint as Ronan to do the hit.

And so it seems like they
never interact with each other.

So from the first episode,
he's still would make sense why

Kasi was going after it still.

So it's yeah.

So it's just, I feel like the more you
shine a light on this watch, the more

it just starts to melt and was just
like, this doesn't make any sense.

I was just really disappointed.

Cause it's like, I think the only reason
why they introduced this is just to

say that Laura Barton was Mockingbird
and that was pretty much, it, it

was really a plot device that really
served no purpose other than that.

So yeah.

Jude: And,

Trey: and, and it feels like
it, I never thought about this

until the way you just framed it.

But if that is the only thing that it
almost just feels like its purpose was

to, to do a way with the agents of shield
cannon, which I've talked about it before.

I'm fine with if there's a reason for
it, but I never thought about like, okay,

this is almost kind of spiteful now that
there wasn't an actual reason for it.

Sean: I know.

Well, you know, what's funny is
that that debate will never go away.

And for me, like whether it's Canada or
not, I still enjoy them for what they are.

And so like, it never bothers me, like
if they're actually Canada, but there are

people out there who are very adamant.

No, it's not cannon or yes, it is cannon.

And I feel like it
doesn't really resolve it.

I think they're just
adding fuel to higher.

Trey: Maybe that

Sean: people still talk.

Yeah.

I think that's exactly what it is.

It's like, let's know this and
just watch chaos and shoe with the

Marvel cinematic universe fandom.

Right.

Trey: They've had it
too good for too long.

Let's add a little fuel to the

fire.

Sean: Let's see what
they come up with next.

Jude: Oh man.

Trey: Oh, that's fancy.

Well, yeah.

You know, I think that's a pretty
good summation of some of the

disappointments we had with Hawkeye.

I think as you can tell significantly
shorter than our things we enjoyed.

So pretty safe to say that this is one
of the better Disney plus series, but

that's going to move us into our next
section, which is lingering questions

that we have for the series or some of
the extraneous potential series as well.

So starting with me this time, I think
one of the lingering things on my mind is

wondering what will Kate do now that she
doesn't really have anywhere to call home?

Uh, she, you know, it starts off
with her coming back to New York

and just having her own apartment
that her mom was paying for.

But now that she, or I should say
now that her mom has been arrested,

is she going to be staying with the
Barton's or will she be doing her own.

Sean: I actually have a theory about that.

Trey, if you let me, uh, go for it, cut
it off, you know, ramble on about that.

But, um, knowing the comics with hot guy
and, and Clint Martin and Kate Bishop,

I think that if they were to do a season
two, which I really hope it kind of

concerns me, they haven't confirmed it.

Even though they said, you know,
season finale, the fact that Loki,

and what if has had like a, you
know, season two is coming out.

We haven't heard anything yet.

Like, I'm really concerned about that.

But if they were to do a season
two, I think what we might do or

what we might see is Kate Bishop.

My actually become a private
investigator LA because that's actually

what she does and the comics when
she's not teaming up with Clint.

And I think the series here has actually
did a great job of kind of showing

Kate, being a detective already.

Cause he's figuring out things
along the way very quickly.

And they did a lot of, like, I think
there was one scene where she was like

taking notes about the tracksuit bros
and even like the drawings and everything

included was making fun of her drawings.

But I think that was kind of like a little
throw back to the fact that, you know,

she is good enough to be a private ISI.

I would not be surprised if
they show her being an LA trying

to be a private investigator.

And I think will be really cool is if
they bring Clint back again, um, you know,

more than just a random cameo, but to tie
their stories in again, is that we might

see Clint run into his brother, Barney,
who is also trained just like Clinton.

So he's almost like Clint's
equal in that regard.

And Barney becomes a villain
that they're fighting.

And so he has to get Kate to
help out for whatever reason.

So that's, that is where I would like
to see season two if they do that.

Um, but that's what they do in
the comics is that she's actually

a private investigator out in LA.

Trey: Dude if season two is the reverse
and which Clint needs Kate's help.

That is just a rich prompt for a series.

I love, love that idea of man.

Sean: Oh yeah, because it's,
it's a good, uh, way to show that

they're on equal footing and that
they're truly partners in that way.

Right.

Is that Kate needed his
help him season one.

And now it's, it's the
reverse in season two.

I think it'd be a great
way to demonstrate that.

Yeah,

Jude: no, that's, that's fantastic.

Um, and a great way to answer
that, like said the what's

what happens next for Kate?

Um, as a lingering question and I
think, you know, Hey, Marvel hit us up.

We're we're ready to ready to start
developing season two for you.

Trey: So, what about you, Sean?

Do you have any lingering questions?

Uh, on the series?

Sean: Uh, so I got to say there
are some questions and they're

a little bit more, I would say a
little bit more silly and comical.

Um, the first one is, are the
shrunken bros and we can be okay.

Like, are we ever going to get a
follow up to see like, what actually

happened to, cause I thought maybe
that'd be the end credit scene

for the sear or for the season.

And now we have no idea if
like they're just hanging out

with this Al now in that truck.

And they're just going to be tiny
people for the rest of their life.

Jude: I thought I heard or read somewhere
that that was a potential in credit.

Oh.

But the realization of like,
they're just about to be eaten by

birds, they liked to cut it and
decided, no, I gotta look that up.

I think that, I think I read
that somewhere, so yeah.

Trey: Well, Hey, let's
put it on the record now.

Yes or no.

Do we see them cameo and ant man quantum.

Sean.

Sean: Oh, I would, I would
love, I think that'd be a guy

wouldn't be fallout if they do it.

I, I think I would, yes.

I will go on the record and say, yes, I
think they will make at least some, if

they don't make a appearance, there'll
be some sort of call-out about them.

Like maybe Scott saying like, yeah,
I think Clint told me about like,

these three guys are shrunken down.

I need to figure out what to
do or something like that.

So if they don't appear, I think
maybe a shout out at least.

Trey: Yeah,

Jude: dude.

Yes or no.

Yes.

I'm going with, at least with shame
with Sean with at least a shout out.

Uh that's it's too good.

It's too funny.

Trey: And to go out there.

Yes.

I'll put myself on the record and
I'm going to go one step further.

That'll be the cold open to that's
somehow they're like in dire straights

and Scott Lang has to come in and say,

Sean: oh, that'd be comical.

I would love that.

If that happens, I'm going to hit you
up, like buy you dinner because I'm

like, if you, if you hit it up a nail
like that, cause that's a bull gas.

If you get it on the nail
like that, that is amazing.

So yes, I will send you a
$10 gift card to McDonald's

Jude: oh, on the app,

Sean: on the app.

Trey: Listen, Kevin FYGI
super fan he's listening.

He knows.

He

Jude: knows.

Sean: Um, the, the other comical thing or
question I have is I I've been saying this

on a couple of episodes on our podcasts,
and I'm curious to see what you guys think

about this, but in the series, we have our
monitor Cain, the third and our Mon decane

the seven both living at the same time.

And I did the math and Armando
Kane would be the seventh.

Great, great.

Great grandfather.

It's out of the great, great or
great, great, great grandfather.

And I just stopped.

That is really weird.

It's like no one else bothered by that
fact that there's this huge generational

gap, because that means that like Armando
cane and all of his subsequential sons,

like add children at a very early age
in order for him to be at that age and

to have a seventh running around there.

Right.

Trey: Well, listen, like next
year, we're going to get the Disney

plus show days of our mind to

Jude: figure out what that story is.

That's definitely a soap
opera waiting to happen.

Sean: Oh my gosh.

Oh, that'd be fantastic.

Yeah.

So

Jude: I liked that character
to just, I don't know, just

the way he carried himself.

Um, but

Sean: now third or the seventh?

Jude: Both actually

Trey: yeah.

If anything, the seventh was carried.

Sean: Oh,

Jude: yeah.

You know what?

I want you to say it, I'm going to jump
in and say, one of my lingering questions

is, are we going to get to see the
LARPers again and in particular grills?

Um, because I really, really
enjoyed that aspect of the show,

but that character, uh, grills in
particular, is this something that

we have to wait for a season two?

Is he going to be, you know, something
that somebody that shows up a little

bit more, almost this Kate bishops
man in the chair, so to speak, you

know, that we see kind of show up
over and over again and other things.

Yeah.

So like that's one for me.

Uh, as far as lingering question.

And for his biggest security firm
is we are led to believe that the

bishops had what happens now to that.

Um, cause I feel like there's an
opportunity where like kingpin can

slide in and take that over or is
like, she does that go to Kate's like,

you know what you know, is this kind
of her in, so now I'm super rich and

don't have to have a job, you know?

Like, like I'm really curious
of what happens in that company.

Sean: Yeah.

Trey: What if this is a way for
AME to take your place and the

remnants of Bishop's security?

Do we bring

Jude: that back?

Sean: Is aim still around because
there were an Ironman three.

Yeah,

Trey: that was the

Jude: last we heard of him.

Yeah.

You know what if, if between the two.

And I say it's between the two.

Um, but I realized there's no
context for the second one.

Uh,

I prefer the second option.

The second option is hammer.

Like I'd rather between aim and
hammer industry, you know, I'd rather

have a hammer and Sam Rockwell back.

Yeah.

But yeah, the aim

Sean: was an iron man.

Three hammer was in jail
at that point, right?

Jude: Uh, yes.

I think the last time we saw

Sean: him, he was in the workshop.

Right.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

But yeah.

Yeah.

And you know, not to trail off too
much, but I mean, that's, that was

another thing about Kate's character
that I thought was interesting that

they didn't really go anywhere with.

Is that.

Kate almost had that snobby attitude.

Cause when she's at security
at Bishop securities, this he's

walking in, she just drops her coat
and backpack at the front desk.

And like not even on the desk,
just on the floor and just expect

somebody to take it up for her.

Right.

And, and so I thought it was
interesting that they wrote that in.

I wasn't quite sure why they did that.

And I thought they were going to
do something with it, but I don't

know, maybe it was just kind of a
quirky thing that they had in there.

But in regard to the LARPers, is there,
if I take a minute kind of talk about

that translation from the comics to
who they are in the show, is that

in the comics they weren't LARPers.

And the whole context of that comics
to kind of give in a nutshell is

that this is a very different Clinton
Barton than what we're seeing in the

comic run that I mentioned earlier.

Clint Barton's actually.

Bachelor.

We actually see in the comic run
that he ends up sleeping with

a woman, like during the run.

And, uh, it, Trey, I, I apologize.

Cause I know you said PG 13.

I don't know if that falls under
PG 13 or not, so that's fine.

You're good.

Okay.

Trey: Iron man.

One has this pretty much covered on that.

Sean: So, but yeah, I mean,
so, so, you know, he sleeps

with the woman in that run.

Um, he's like divorce and all that, but
he's, he's definitely a bachelor in that.

So it's a different
kind of Clinton, Barney.

He doesn't have a family that he's
trying to get back to in here.

Right.

But in that comic run, he actually lives
in a apartment building in New York city.

It had just a, quite a lot of money for.

You know, working with the
Avengers that the tracksuit

mafia was bullying the tenants.

And so he ends up buying the building from
them in order to stop that from happening.

And all the characters that you
see are LARPers are actually

tenants in the comic run.

So grills was actually a very different
kind of character, but I think what

they did that was really genius is that
one, they make them LARPers because

just like in the series, the, at the
end of the comics, all the tenants

actually helped Clinton Cate fight
off the tracksuit mafia by just taking

up like baseball batch of whatever
is around them and attacking them.

So I think that was a great way to use
LARPers as a way to show that they can

actually help Clinton Kate, because
they have some sort of fighting training

through their LARPing experience.

Right.

I love the fact that they also made them
all first responders as well, too, because

they've made a lot more sense in the
context of that show of that storyline.

And it's still kind of, in my
opinion, holds true to the comic book

run from where it's aspired from.

So.

Jude: Yeah.

Now I have the Marvel unlimited and I'm
trying to go through those, but I say

trying, like I haven't finished I've
started the, that Hawkeye run and yeah.

And I remember that what you were saying
about the buying the building and, and

ultimately just having that bachelor
feel and like, that's just what he does.

He's an, a venture kind of
that's, this is what I do.

This is what I'm good at.

So I'm going to go avenge,

Sean: right?

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

So yeah, I mean, so what's funny is
that there's a lot of inspiration from

the common ground, but there's also a
lot of stark differences in the series

as well, too, that makes it its own.

And it still works very
well for how they did it.

And that's why, again, that's
why this has been one of my

favorite shows because of that.

So.

I think the biggest question, there's
a lot of them like, you know, I, I

want to see if we're going to get and
Elena, you know, and another series of

like young Avengers, I want to know,
you know, is, are we going to see Clint

again by, I think the biggest thing in
addition to, are we getting a season two?

Is that, is this the same king pin as
the one for the Netflix Daredevil series?

And we already talked about that.

Um, but I think this is going to be an
argument which will be like probably

never cause they do a really good
job of confirming and denying and

their statements at the same time.

Like they just do a
great job of doing that.

They really do.

So.

Trey: Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, it wasn't until I realized
there's no real incentive, just

from a business standpoint to
de-incentivize people from watching

a show, even if it's not Marvel
studios, it's still part of Marvel.

Why would they say, oh no, that's trash.

Don't watch that.

They're never going to definitively say

Sean: right?

Yeah.

Trey: Well, cool.

I think that's a good sample of
some of the lingering questions

that we have, uh, for the series.

And, you know, I'm going to go ahead and
switch gears here since we already teased

it a little bit earlier in the episode.

I'm, I'm just very curious to know Sean,
if you had one takeaway from this show to

have as a lesson for the other MCU shows,
what would you like to see them adopt?

Sean: Um, you know, for me it it's
actually, I think there's, there's two.

Um, I would like for them to still make
shows like hot guy in the sense that

just like what you said, Trey is it
gives us a deeper dive into characters

and stories, especially with people
who don't have superpower abilities.

Cause I think that's, what's
really cool about this show.

Um, I think this was, um, probably
the only show that we've seen so far

where we have people that weren't
super powered, um, you know, with the

exception of Sam Wilson in Falcon,
winter soldier, but you have Bucky,

who's a super soldier in that regard.

Um, but I love that.

And the fact that it's, you know, it's
street level type of a crime show that we

get that it's something that I think can
live in its own little world that doesn't

have to necessarily be impacting the MCU
general, but it kind of lives in that.

And I think that's what made this
show really well because it's really

reminiscent of the Netflix series that
was really successful with their devil

and Jessica Jones and all of them.

And, you know, the, the main difference
is that it's not TVMA and it's not as dark

as that, but I think the stories really
hold up really well because of that.

Um, and I think that the.

I would like to see them still
exploring the themes of the

aftermath of people coming to grass.

Like what happened as
a result of end game?

Um, I don't think they're
going to harp on it too much.

Um, I think they'll probably have a
couple of shows on that, but I think

exploring, you know, Having a movie
or show that dives into, you know,

what happened as a result of like
this major event from that character?

Cause we saw that with Ironman
three really well, I think with,

you know, with him having PTSD
from what happened in New York.

Um, but we haven't really seen a whole
lot more to that same depth of what we

have with Hawkeye, with the exception
of Wanda vision, who, you know,

completely, you know, hold the town
hostage and change reality for everybody.

And so, um, so I think having those
kinds of shows where they explore

themes of handling those things that
happen to them as the aftermath of

some sort of major event and kind of
seeing that, cause we don't see that

with a lot of these superhero movies.

And the first time we really
saw that was in Spider-Man

homecoming, where we saw that.

The D the department David's control came
in and tried to clean up New York, but

it's like every superhero movie before
that it's like, when they just completely

destroyed city, we don't talk about,
you know, what happened after the fact.

Right.

And so I think that's something that
would be really cool for them to continue

on is to still kind of do that more of a
introspection reflection type of thing as

they're moving forward with a plot of that
helps with the character forward as well.

Trey: Yeah.

W we, we put out on social media
again, this very same question.

And I just wanted to jump in here
real quick before I throw it back to

you, dude, that, uh, this one comes in
from Rob Logan on Twitter, and it says

personal stakes are just as, if not
more interesting than universal threats.

It's time to explore more
street-level stories.

And I think that is definitely in
line with everything you just said,

Sean, and, uh, and just real quick, I
totally shortened Twitter to Twitter

just to mess with Rob, but go ahead.

I interrupted you to,
to put that in there.

Jude: Um, yeah, I just, I have that
same feeling like, like I feel that

street level, that first episode Rema
reminiscent of Daredevil, uh, on Netflix.

So I completely agree with that.

The direction though.

I think I want to go is I w I want to see
them continue to build on the creativity.

And then what I mean by that is.

I up until Hawkeye Wanda vision was my
favorite MCU show because I just loved

the concept of the sitcom and recreating
the sitcoms because I remember growing

up watching Nick at night reruns and
just television and the way they were

able to wrap that in to Wanda's life.

The family around the TV,
watching the sitcom, right.

Is that's like what happened?

And it was, you know, a family event then
hear the creativity of how they were able

to portray the hearing loss, both with
Clint, Maya, American sign language, and.

And have they really were able
to make me feel, get a glimpse

or experience, uh, what that is.

That's the big thing for me, there is
like in those six episodes, there's an

element of creativity that you can do that
you can't do in a movie because they're

that conceptual or things that I need to
teach slowly, the audience and how, and

what I'm doing and build up to, to this.

Um, and so that's, that's something
I really hope they can carry on with.

And these Disney plus

Sean: shows.

Trey: Yeah, it's always interesting, or
it makes it a far more interesting show

when you have that level of creative
vision to really center the show on.

And, and I think you illustrated
it beautifully what that was

for one division and how some
of the, uh, different glimpses.

To other experiences helps
in Hawkeye and creating that,

that, um, deepening of the show,

you know, for me, it, it circles
back to kind of your point as well.

Shawn, uh, I think you outlined
everything about the street level threats,

uh, of Hawkeye that made it really
interesting to go on that same token.

But on the flip side, I prefer
that not prefer, I enjoy that

civilian level view as well.

I already mentioned how that inspired
so much of what Kate turned out to

be, uh, everything it gave us with
the LARPers, but even glimpses of,

to the way the population at large
feels by having fantasies, right.

Graffitied on the toilet or the apartment
with the mug that says Stanos was

right as well to even having Rogers the
musical or the way that the waiter was

congratulate or not congratulating cliff,
but like thanking him for, for what

he had done at the battle of New York.

Again, as I said in the positive
section, for as much as we'd

like to say, the MCU is expanded,
this show was about deepening it.

And I think that's how you do it.

Moving forward by giving more
than just the perspective of the

people we're dealing with within
the stories they're telling.

Yeah.

Jude: Uh, go ahead.

I was gonna say something you
just said popped in my head and

it's the wrong section for it.

Who is Kate Bishop's aunt, another
leader in question I to know,

Trey: well, it's the truest
lingering question of all,

because it's out of the section.

Sean: I was going to say this,
a lot of people speculated.

It was going to be a.

Oh, what's her name?

It's exceeding my mind now, Val.

Yes.

A lot of people were speculating is
going to be valid and I actually could

see that, but what's interesting is
that there's an Easter egg in there.

That's a throwback to the comics where
when you see Kate watching TV in the

background, there's a movie poster.

And I forget the name of the actress
that's featured in that, but that's

actually a character in the comics.

And she's, I think only in, for one issue.

And what's interesting is that
she's in that one issue because, um,

she owns this like Manson or this
estate and she's selling it and the

Avengers are interested in buying it.

So they send Clint and, um, Bobby
Morris, who was his wife at the time

to go and talk to her about buying it.

And then.

Trick shot or, or somebody
like that came in, um, and was

trying to kill the Avengers.

And then she, actually, that
actress actually tried to save

them and she ends up dying for it.

And what's funny is when you read
the description of this character,

uh, they said that, you know,
right before she died, Clint

made her an honorary adventure.

And can you imagine,
like, someone's dying?

Like, you know, there's just like
at the last breath, you're like, I,

you know, I Knight you in a venture.

Like I would've been like that.

That means nothing now, you know?

Sorry.

I just said to have to, I
apologize, but, you know,

Trey: listen, I too would
like to forget that,

Sean: but, but I thought, I think
it's really interesting, like how

they put that Easter egg in there,
but yeah, I think it's fascinating how

that's her aunt's apartment and you
think that there would be more to it.

Maybe there will be in later, but I
think they left it ambiguous enough.

So that way people have fun with
the theories, but they don't

have to answer the question.

I think that's, what's a lot of fun about.

Doing something like that is you can
like, let people's imagination and Riley,

you never have to confirm it, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Trey: Well, thank you for the extra
lingering question there, but you

know, I, I think we're getting
pretty close to wrapping this up.

So I want to end this with this question
and we can start with you, Jude, what

was your favorite episode of the season?

Jude: Oh man, I'm going to
have to go all of the no,

Trey: no, you wasted that trip last week.

Jude: Uh, yeah, no, it's just, it's
a tough, it's a tough question.

Cause, cause like episode three is
so good with the action sequences,

uh, and the interrogation, but
um, I'm going to have to go.

You know, as much as I, the one
I kept going back to was with,

um, Elaina and Kate and that,
and that conversation they had.

And so it, so what was it?

Episode five.

Yeah.

Five where I just went and rewatched
that scene and rewatched that

scene and rewatched that scene.

So yeah, episode five,
I think was my favorite.

Trey: Yeah.

It's as, as much as you have quoted
that scene, I couldn't imagine any

other episode taking that top spot.

Sean: Well, I will say actually to
what you said, Jude episode three

is my favorite episode of all them.

And, um, you know, that's entitled,
it goes and it's written by

Kate Mathews, entertainer being
and directed by Burton birdie.

And I just absolutely love it.

Cause I think it was just a masterpiece
of an episode because just like what you

said, it had a great action scene, great
writing with, you know, introducing my.

And introducing her as a person in
the first 10 minutes, like fantastic,

because you're able to kind of set
up who she is growing up and what her

backstory is, and then be able to just
go right into, into the show with that.

He had a sense of who that character is.

The action was great.

The selection of music, the Christmas
music that they played underneath

it with the song for the, yeah.

But in the Nutcracker and the pacing of
it, like just match what the music so

well, like they just did a fantastic job
with the accent sequence that, you know,

that heartbreaking scene when Clinton,
Kate, and not all, or a nasal talking.

Um, and you know, Nate is just
saying to me, yeah, If he can't

make it to Christmas, that's okay.

And you know, Clint's having that
breakdown and, you know, and as a father,

like I, anytime there's a kid involved.

Yeah.

You immediately think about your
kid and I will tell you this.

I cried when I first saw that and
I continued to cry every time I

watch that scene because it was a
stat, it was that moving of a scene.

And I think it was just
sort of a fantastic job.

So that one will always be my number
one episode of not just this series,

but of all the projects that they've had
of all the Marvel shows on Disney plus.

Yeah.

Trey: You know, I'm so glad that I
am following you on this one, because

you have made my job a lot easier
because for almost all the reasons

you have stated episode three is
my favorite of the series as well.

And I even said it when that
episode came out, that episode

three of Hawkeye is not just the
best episode of the series so far.

It is among the best of all
the Disney plus shows so far.

And I full heartedly believe that.

And, and there's two things
to add on to what you said.

Uh, cause I mean you echoed pretty
much everything that I wanted to talk.

I'm a sucker for the story circle.

And the fact that that episode begins
with Kate and Clint captive and being

at odds and not a cohesive partnership
to the end where they're captive once

more, but they have learned how to be a
team like the way that they get to that

point within that episode is fantastic.

And it evens, it starts with
the exiting, the KB toy shop.

It speaks so much, there's so many ways
they do this, but it speaks so much

to who they are as characters that as
they're looking for a getaway car, Kate

gets so excited about the charters.

Like, Hey, we can take this.

And then it pans over to Clint who
isn't the more realistic, like, no,

let's take this rent, gonna beat it up.

So you have on just a pure action level,
the difference between the expectations

of Kate and the reality of Clint,
and they just continuously do that

throughout the action sequences through.

Kate translating for Clint and with
his son to the conversation that

diner of what Kate thinks being a
superhero is versus what it actually is.

It is a beautiful

Sean: episode.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The, the, the writers just did a
fantastic job with that episode.

Like I just, I cannot say enough great
things about the writing on that.

So it's it's I agree completely

Trey: fantastic.

I, I gotta say this.

I, this went longer than I
anticipated, but so worth it.

Cause I, I enjoyed this

Sean: a lot of fun.

Yeah.

Thank you very much.

I, and I'll be honest.

I know it's because of me, because I
will go on and on about this series.

It's okay.

Don't be modest.

I know.

It's me.

It's, that's what it is.

That's the reality of it.

You don't try to, to give you an example.

When I did the little media reviews of
like each episode of Hawkeye, I initially

said it was going to be 15 minutes.

I don't think any of them ran shorter
than 45, you know, it's all me, so.

Thank you for having me on here.

I had a lot of fun and I had a blast
talking to you all about Hawkeye.

I will talk about Hawkeye with anyone
at any time, no matter what, and

this was just a blast to see what
you all thought of it and have those

conversations I've been wanting to have.

And so this was just great.

Thank you very much.

Oh,

Jude: thank you for, for joining us.

Like I said, it's fun getting to nerd out.

That's that's the other thing
we talked about the podcasting.

It's fun just to like, you have
this, but there's moments like

you just, oh, you forget this
and you just talk and so, yeah.

It's totally cool.

I love it.

Trey: Yeah.

Thank you so much.

And, and it doesn't need to be said, but
the invitation is always open whenever

you want to come back on the show.

Let's

Sean: do it.

Yep.

Trey: Yeah.

And of course, if you're listening and
you want to hear more of Sean's work, you

can find them at the Sean Holt on Twitter,
and you can find his podcast at caption

life, both on Twitter and Instagram.

And while you're at it, make sure
that you're subscribed to the

caption life podcast on pretty
much every podcast platform.

Uh, around.

Yeah.

Sean: Yes, definitely.

Trey: As far as our show goes, if you
want to get in touch with us and answer

some of the questions that we had within
this wrap-up episode, you can find us on

Twitter and Instagram at MC you need to
know we've been doing a lot more work to

put out some of the questions that we have
in these outlines so that we can pepper

those into the show while we record.

So if you want to be part of that
and helping shape the show, make

sure you're following us there
and get in on that conversation.

Yeah.

Jude: And of course, always scroll down
to the bottom of the show notes, click

on the discord link, where you can
join us and at a wide range of people

to talk about Marvel tick, tick, boom.

Recently we just saw him, loves pictures
of your pets, food, all kinds of stuff.

Please join us there.

And the best, some of the
best things you can do for us.

Leave a rating and review apple
podcast, Spotify, and share with

a

Trey: friend.

We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for
the use of our theme song, which is

his rendition of the Avengers theme.

You can buy more of his work on
a SoundCloud, which is linked

in the show notes as well.

Well, that's going to do it.

Thank you so much for listening,
Sean, and you, and thank you so much

Sean: for doing this.

Thank you, Trey.

Thank you, Sean.

Thank you bill.

I really enjoyed this as a lot of fun.

We'll

Trey: see you all next week.

Did you not get it?

Sean: Let me double check.

You're not cool enough, man.

Trey: As much as I'd like to join on
that, teasing, I have a history of

forgetting to send the yellow line to

Jude: this is not the first time.

So what will end up happening is,
is he'll like work on the outline

and then he'll screenshot it to
me in a text and I'll look at it.

And he's like, so what do you think?

And I'll just look at this, like, okay.

Yeah, it was great, you know, but then
like it doesn't come across in the.

Sean: That's interesting.

Do you guys use Gmail for your email or?

Yes.

Trey: So I'll, so I have, uh, my
own personal Gmail that I use.

That's where I'll create the outline
and then I'll share it to the MCU EMC.

You need to know email, so Jude
can have access to it without

clogging his personal one.

And yeah, but also too, if you
are, you do have permission for it.

So I don't know why you're not

Jude: seeing, I have no
idea, like what's going on.

I got it.

Now.

I just, I don't know what's going on.

Sean: Even Google doesn't
think you're cool, man.

Jude: And you will, you will know this as,
as teaching high schoolers, I've learned.

I'm okay.

Not being cool, like
unbelievably comfortable.

Trey: I'm unbelievably comfortable with
being uncool is the greatest sentence.

I think anybody's ever.