Trey: Hello and welcome back to another
episode of MCU Need to Know, a podcast

dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic
Universe and everything you need to know.

I'm Trey.

Jude: I'm Jude.

How you doing Trey?

Trey: Well, Jude, I'm excited because we
get to welcome back someone who rivals

the editors for the most amount of Black
Widow viewings, whether it's MCU deep

dives, top fives or stories summarized
our guest is the mind behind every

episode of There Was an Idea, a Marvel
Cinematic Universe podcast, and someone

we're happy to welcome back to the show.

Welcome TK!

TK: Hello.

Thank you for having me again.

You that intro, you nailed it.

You you've outdone yourself on the intro.

Trey: You know, after the, the,
the praise that I got when I

was over on your episode, I was
like, all right, here we go.

We got, we got to go to bat today.

TK: It's going to be a game now
trying to one up each other.

Trey: Oh, I welcome it.

That'll be so much fun.

Jude: Oh yeah.

That'd be a lot of fun,

Trey: but yeah.

How's it going?

TK: It's going pretty well.

Yeah.

I'm really excited to be back on MCU.

Need to know and talking with
both of you guys about what if

Jude: yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'm just curious.

Has your, your school year start.

TK: Oh, yes.

Jude: Yeah.

I don't remember it longer than me,
like before your summer break came on.

So I wasn't sure when you started exactly.

TK: That's right.

Yeah.

I started at the end of August.

Students came back early September,
uh, even earlier than usual

this year, before labor day.

So it's been about a month and I am
feeling it as I'm sure you relate to

getting used to the feeling in your body.

Again, the rhythm of the waking
up early and the commute.

And even if you're working over
the summer, it doesn't feel the

same as when you're really in
the rhythm of the school year.

So it's been exhausting,
but it's been good.

Trey: Well, you know, as the intro
would to you are the host of, there

was an idea, uh, lately you've
been doing what if coverage, but

you've been doing it in bulk.

Uh, I was wondering if you could
let our listeners know how that's

been going and, uh, what you've been
doing in those in-between episodes

when you're not covering what is

TK: yeah.

So as you said, my coverage of what if
has been a little bit different than my

coverage of the other Disney plus shows?

Since I started the podcast last summer,
it's kind of gone through a few different

evolutions of what the podcast is
because like you guys, I started when

I was looking back on installments,
any MCU that had, that we were familiar

with that had come out many years ago.

And then once we started getting the.

New content upon new content and
early 2021, it shifted into week,

two week coverage of what was new.

So with what if for a few different
reasons, it's kind of just gone in a

different direction where two or three
episodes at a time with a different guest.

And I'm trying to bring some new voices
in who have a particular lens that might

enhance the discussion of the, what if
episodes, because as I've talked about

on my show, I have brought up against a
couple of things with the, what if show?

Not that I haven't enjoyed it,
but I've been thinking about the

way that I'm discussing it because
it's different than my approach to

the other installments of the MCU.

So.

That being said, I have put out episodes
covering episodes one through eight, just

as you said, in chunks and on the weeks
that I'm not doing that, I've branched

out a little bit and have done some
other episodes where I have, for example,

recently I did an MCU top five episode
where I gathered a bunch of people who

have been guests on my show over the
past year plus, and we talked about our

top five favorite characters and our
top five favorite movies in the MCU.

I also did an episode where I talked about
the, uh, my, my favorite needle drops

in the MCU music moments in the MCU, uh,
with you guys, we did an MCU movie draft.

So it's been fun to, in addition to
doing the coverage of whatever new

content is out to also be able to
do those other fun format episodes.

And of course, with the new movies
that are coming out as well, what I've

decided to do is, uh, first impressions.

Quick, 20, 30 minute, just
me on the microphone, fresh

out of the movie theater.

And then after a few weeks, uh, deep,
uh, deeper dive analysis into the film.

And most recently I was joined
by you for the chunky episode.

Yeah.

Trey: So much fun to get to do.

Yeah.

TK: That was a blast.

And as you mentioned, that was my longest

Trey: episode to date.

Sorry.

Yeah, it was, it was so

Jude: much, you all did great.

It was so much fun to listen to.

Thanks,

TK: Jude.

Yeah, I, and you're not off the hook
either, because train, I got to talk

about his top five movies when we had
the shonky discussion, but you and

I haven't had that discussion yet.

So we're going to have to find
a time to have you on my show

and incorporate that in there.

Jude: Absolutely.

I'm game I'm game.

And I really, really
enjoyed the other two.

Your, your top five, I liked the
way you mixed in the old guests.

And I really enjoyed the needle
drop and I'm waiting for.

Your MCU, Spotify playlist.

Yes.

TK: Oh, I'm so glad you mentioned that
because that was the next thing that I

was thinking of when I I'll be honest.

I thought about doing a tie in
playlist to advertise that episode

and just didn't get around to it.

But I have another idea coming
up for a tie-in with thinking

about a playlist for particular.

Characters in the MCU.

So keep an eye out for that.

Trey: That's wonderful.

That's awesome.

Thanks.

Well, you know, if I am a hypothetical
new listener to your show, is there

any particular episode that you would
recommend as a great starting point?

This is such

TK: a great question because
it reminds me of the, how do

you get people into the MCU?

Do you do release order or do you do the
chronological watch or something else?

So I was thinking about it and I
think similarly, there are a couple

different ways you could approach
the, there was an idea podcast.

And one of the things I set out to do from
the very beginning was to try to capture

the spirit of the MCU by allowing each
of my episodes to have its own flavor

depending on the guest for the week.

But even if the guests themselves are
very different and bring different

perspectives in to make sure that it is.

Part of a cohesive whole, so
that's been my goal all along.

So thinking about that, I guess
the two strategies that I think I

would recommend if, uh, if somebody
has heard me on your show before,

but has never gone and listened.

What I might recommend is to just
dive into the episode that covers your

favorite MCU movie or your favorite
episode of your favorite MCU show.

And, and hopefully you like
it and you go from there.

Um, or I guess the other approach would
be to start with some of those bonus

episodes, like the, uh, like the top
fives, because that gives you a taste

for a few different guests who I've
worked with multiple times, or since

you're listening to MCU need to know.

And you like Trey and Jude,
maybe you start with the movie

Jude: draft.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's, that's a good start.

And I like the idea of starting
with the top fives and getting that.

Trey: Especially since it covered so
many of the previous guests, that's a

great intro to your, the voices that
there'll be hearing on the episodes.

TK: Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I mean, and I'm grateful if anybody
wants to listen to any episode, I

would, I would absolutely appreciate
that if you haven't already.

So thank you guys so much.

Trey: Yeah.

So of course we'll link to some
of those in the show notes.

And if you're not already, you
should definitely following TK on

Twitter, on Instagram at an idea
underscore podcast and available on

apple podcast, Spotify and Stitcher,
or wherever you download podcasts.

So we're about to dive into season
one episode eight of what if, but

before we get there, we're going
to try something new this week.

We're going to try and see if we
can't live up to the MCU, need to

know name a where we have this new.

Uh, each week, Jude and I are going to
be keeping an eye out for any news within

the MCU between our recordings and curate
the one that we think you need to know.

So starting this week where you're going
to do an article called MCU writer,

teases weirder, season two for marvels,
what if it's written by Richard Nevins

and you can find it on the direct.

And it features a quote from the
head writer of what if AC Bradley,

where she spoke on another podcast
about what to expect in season two.

So she said, quote, season
two is a lot of fun.

The training wheels come off and we
get to do a little bit weirder Wilder.

There's one episode, which is
probably the closest to my own

personality I've ever written.

It's heartfelt, it's full of action
and bad nineties clothing choices.

So.

TK.

What do you think about season two?

Of what if getting weirder?

TK: I am 100% down for it to get weirder,
and I hope that by weirder it encompasses

different types of weird, right?

Like the party Thor, weird with
just a bunch of bizarre cameos

and absurdity and silliness.

And then some of the weirdness
that we've seen in other places

over the course of what if with,
with some of the very dark tone.

So I'm very much looking forward to it.

And I'm very curious about
the nineties clothing choices.

Trey: That's gotta be
captain Marvel, right?

Jude: Um, Marvel, maybe the X-Men.

Oh, Yeah.

I mean, it's what if at this
point you own the property.

Trey: I love that the X-Men are coming.

Is the drum that you continue to beat,

Jude: but no, like, like, like
I'm imagining, like multi-verse

pull in the old X-Men from, uh,
the nineties animated cartoon.

Wow.

It's already like you don't and you don't
have to tie and worry about like who's

casting and stuff and just bring them in.

Yeah.

Trey: That'd be so cool.

Yeah.

Right.

I, you know, I, I'm definitely
down for, for weirder.

I remember there was this, I can't
remember if it was a rumor or if it

was just, you know, something that
was led out during press releases, but

apparently there was going to be an
episode that was featured on Peter Parker,

where instead of becoming Spiderman,
he turned into an actual spider.

Like that sort of weird is what
I would love to see in this.

What if so, uh, yeah.

I'm, I'm down for it to kind of
take the training wheels off.

Yeah.

TK: I would love if we went a little bit
into that horror vein a little bit more

too, especially knowing that we have some
characters coming up in the MCU in live

action, like blade and moon night, if we,
and the zombies episode I thought was, was

really fun and dark and weird in that way.

And I think it'd be cool if we
see a little bit more of that.

So Peter Parker as a spider just had.

Absurd Kafka S you
know, body horror to it.

That would be so cool.

Trey: Yeah.

Jude: Yeah.

Trey: Well, cool.

So like we said, this was going
to be a new segment, uh, just

a little bit of a news update.

We think you need to know.

Uh, so yeah, of course we are going to
be diving into season one episode eight

of what if though, and it is entitled.

What if Ultron one and the way we're going
to do this, as we've got some preschooler

thoughts followed by an audio sound, which
will take us into the spoiler zone, but

before we get there, TK, do you have any
pre spoiler thoughts for this episode?

TK: Yeah, just to say that I
really, really liked this episode.

I felt like the stakes have been
raised, and I really appreciated the

choice of the characters, especially
throughout the series of what if I

feel like what I've been able to latch
onto when I have had some instances.

Reactions to the show has been
the character of the watcher

and the development of the
watcher as a through-line.

So without getting into post spoiler
thoughts, I did enjoy, uh, seeing

where his story went in this episode.

Trey: Yeah.

Yeah.

Jude: What about you, dude?

Um, I'm going deal with someone I
told you on the phone this afternoon.

Um, I mean, it's been well-documented
I was not a fan of party Thor episode,

so I, I just feel like, you know, if
you imagine the party Thor episode and

do a complete 180 and that's what this
episode was, and I don't know, it just,

and then the one we posted, you know,
kind of set it in a different way.

I just, I felt like it really found
it sh the show, the series really

found its stride and the, uh, Dr.

Strange episode and the zombie episode,
and then just kinda like stumbled.

You know, with the parties or,
and, and here, it, it really

kind of found itself again,

Trey: for me, uh, sticking to
what we shared on social media.

I it's, it's been the same here,
the well-documented up and down

nature of this season and, and the
way that I've been receiving it.

But man, I, I am cautiously
optimistic about this episode

and the remaining one to come.

Uh, it's funny.

We have that group message with
friend Daniel, where friend Daniel

put in there and he's like, man, I
guess I'm the odd man out this time.

And he said that any critiques he
had is really critiques about what if

and not this episode in particular.

And the reason that I wanted to reiterate
that here is because I think he's a lot

closer to what I was feeling and stated
it so wonderfully that like the baggage

that I think this episode has really has
nothing to do with the episode itself.

And so even though that feels weird,
Like to have to still carry the

weight of what has come before.

I still think that it did a fairly
well, and you know, another thing

that I put out on social media on my
personal account is that I feel like

this episode is the blueprint for what
I want from the series, if it's going

to tackle more serious storylines.

Um, and really, uh, cause Jude,
I mean, it's, it's so funny.

These last two weeks with Eric, the
Killmonger episode, I didn't like it.

Party Thor episode, you
didn't like it here.

This genuinely felt like an episode that
is a compromise between the two things

that we were looking for from the show.

And, uh, I think I'll leave it there
until we get into the spoiler zone.

Yeah.

Jude: Yeah.

You're no longer ready for.

Trey: Yeah, I I'll be safe for the
next two weeks of beating that drum.

Oh, well those are our
pre spoiler thoughts.

So like we said, uh, you're
going to hear an audio cure.

And on the other side, it will be
fair game for all spoilers in the MCU,

except Shung cheat, which as a bit of
a quick programming note, uh, Jude and

I talked about this, uh, rather than
saying that she's, she is exempt from

the spoilers don't every week we're
gonna make this one last statement and

just kind of let people know that shank
Chine the legend, the 10 rings will be

available to stream on November 12th.

And so a week after that date
is when we will bring Sean T

back into the spoiler zone.

So we'll, we'll make sure that
guests know that that that is

exempt from the spoiler zone.

Uh, but we're just.

Keep me from having to say it every week.

But, uh, but yeah, so like we
said, spoiler sound and, uh,

we'll see you on the other side

and we're back.

So we will be breaking this down into
three acts and act one is going to

begin with that opening sequence where
Clint and Natasha are running from

the Ultron bots all the way through
infinite old trons rise to power,

where he becomes aware of the watcher.

Uh, so Tara, if we could start
with you, where would you like

to start within this first act?

TK: Oh man.

Well, I immediately was struck
by the Watcher's narration.

Uh, again, it seems like each episode
we see the watcher as more of a focal

point, not just in this case very
much so in the storytelling itself,

but just even on the screen, right.

Opening.

His face and in more detail than we've
seen it before, it seems like it's,

he's gradually getting closer to us
and gradually getting more detailed.

And I believe that's something that you
guys have talked about already as well.

So he starts off this episode.

He's talking about, you know, we've
seen this before, it's this universe

and it's finals days before its
destruction, but this one breaks my heart.

And I thought that was just
like, Ooh, what a way to start.

So I was immediately, I was
immediately like, okay, I'm in this.

This is great.

I like that.

We're picking up with where we
were at last week in terms of those

stakes, in terms of the watcher,
having more the watcher, having a

more human reaction to things, right?

Like we saw that at the
end of episode seven.

And then we see that to open this one up.

Jude: Let me ask you, cause this was my
first note, um, as well, I felt like it

implied that he'd already seen this story
before to say, did you get that feeling?

TK: Yeah, I, my take on this was
that there's the watcher narration.

That is assuming a place of this has all
played out and I'm telling you the story.

And then there's the character
of the watcher who we see going

through it later on in the episode.

But that those are not, that
they're two different Watchers,

but that it's the watcher from two
different perspectives, I guess.

Jude: Okay.

Okay.

I dunno.

TK: Yeah.

What did you make of that?

Jude: Well, I guess it made me wonder
on the second watch and I know we're in

the first action, not the third act and
I'm jumping all the way to the end, I

guess, or middle I'm already asking maybe
the end of this act, but it's like, I'm

wondering like, did it go differently
this time because of the way the narration

went and then he was discovered and he
realized that discovery was hitting.

So that's, that's what it made me
wonder in the second watch of like,

oh, he's seen this before, but this
time something different happened

that he didn't see the last time.

Trey: You know, I going into this,
when you were asking your question, I

really didn't have too many thoughts
on it, but you just sparks an idea.

Um, I don't know if I've stated this on
the podcast, I'm fairly certain I've,

I've at least texted you my personal head
cannon for why this is all happening.

Is these events like it started
off with that episode one with

captain Carter, where it was fairly
contained, he knew what was going on.

Everything was pretty familiar with
what we knew of the first Avenger movie.

And gradually the season has
shown us getting a little

bit more and more out there.

My personal theory is that because of
the events of low-key things used to

happen out in a particular way, but
now that the TVA is essentially gone.

This is why we're seeing things completely
break free in the multi-verse, which

I think would explain to what you were
talking about, where this is a story

that was supposed to play out one
way and then changed on the watcher,

which is what caught him by surprise.

So that, to me, info sizes, that
feeling that I'd been having as my own

little theory throughout the series.

Jude: Well, and it also makes sense
of, you know, as we've been saying,

the watcher has gotten more involved.

Trey: You know, I do want to say this on
top of the comment of the Watchers saying

this one in particular breaks my heart.

The thing that I think works
so well for this episode is.

Putting Natasha and Clint together against
these Ultron bots was such a great way

to just get us on the ground running
with this episode, uh, you know, Clinton,

Natasha infamously, not the most powered
individuals within the MCU, but the thing

that I think works for them is they are
always that stand in for holding onto

hope in the face of insurmountable odds.

So it, it has that already going
for a, just by playing around

with these two characters.

But the thing that I think it
excelled at was creating this a world

that feels like, that felt like it
was lived in, which is something.

Um, I want to kind of go back through
the series and keeping an eye out for a

little bit more, but I for sure have felt
that feeling in the child episode, where

I talked about the collector, stepping
into the power vacuum of Stanos or the

zombies episode where Peter Parker makes
his, how to survive the zombie apocalypse

video, like little moments like.

Help to sell that this
is a believable universe.

And for this episode in particular,
it was such a simple thing.

But having hoc, I have that mechanical
arm, like immediately upon seeing that

I was like, okay, what happened there?

What was the story that led him to that?

And I thought they were just excelling
in all those very economical,

micro, visual storytelling.

TK: Yeah, I absolutely agree.

And it's funny.

I was talking with the guests that
I worked with last night on my show,

Michael Tanner, the episode that I
did with him, I just put out today

the day of this recording actually.

So it will be out by the time this is
published, but regardless we thank you.

And, uh, regardless we were talking
about the movie age of Ultron and one

of the things that he said that he's
always appreciated about age of Ultron.

And I love the way that he put this is
that it starts off in this, lived in world

where you're thrown into this action.

And it feels like the Avengers have
been hanging out and doing adventure.

Since the first Avengers movie, it feels
like you're kind of just dropped into this

world and there's no big setup of, you
know, why they're back together again.

I mean, obviously there's a reason as to
why they're back together again, but it,

that, it just feels very much like this
is a thing that happens, the Avengers

hang out and they do these things.

And, um, and I, what you were saying,
trade made me think of that, right?

Because even in this animated format
where we're thrown into the action

and we see those details that show
us, oh, Natasha and Clint are friends.

They have this established relationship.

This is a world where
they've been in this already.

And I think that worked out really well.

And I alluded to it in my
preschooler thoughts too, but.

I love that this episode chose to
focus on those two as the last hope.

And those two as the last heroes
here, because they are not the gods.

They are not the super soldiers.

They are the ones who are more
human, um, in, in the way that

they operate in the world.

And I think that was.

The thesis statement of this episode is
it's that idea of, of humans having hope.

And, and he says later in the episode,
the watcher says something like, get up,

you're human, the worst of odds, right?

Like I just love that.

Get up.

You're human.

Um,

Trey: that's going to be my new
daily affirmation in the mirror.

TK: I want to use that on my students
that, and when, when he's so exasperated

by the fact that the box with Armand
Zola's file and it is right next to them.

And he's like, the answer is right there.

That was relatable to me.

Um, but yeah, all that to say that I,
I also really enjoyed that the focus

here was on Hawkeye and black widow.

Jude: Yeah.

Yeah.

Pretty amazing that, like,
I, I just had a note.

It was just like, yeah.

For humans only Natasha
and cleaner, pretty.

Yeah, I, you know, just
wanting to trade, he said, you

wondered where he got the arm.

I wonder where he got one of
the definitely hollows, like

TK: what was up with that?

Jude: Right?

Like we never, we've not seen
anything like that at all.

Not even stark has used
like stealth technology.

I don't know.

Trey: Well, it was, um, an Ironman
three, the little boy in the garage.

He was like, oh yeah, you should use
the stealth, uh, display for your suit.

And Tony's like, that's not a bad idea.

I'll think about it.

And I guess he never
got around to doing it.

TK: It's funny.

I think that the Quinjet is
in stealth mode at some point,

but yeah, that was bizarre.

And he just does, he does
it once and then that's it.

Jude: Right?

Trey: That's one of those things where
like, if this was a video game, you

know, that invincibility cloak is
on a cool-down for such a long time.

So maybe that's why he didn't use it.

Jude: Here's one use.

And that was it.

Trey: But no, I think I'm right there
with you dude, like literally verbatim.

It's a shame.

We never got more awesome adventures.

And Natasha and Clint, like this episode
showed like I could have a whole series

of them, even if it's in, what if
universe, a whole series of them going

on their missions and adventures because
they just worked so well together.

Uh, especially here in this opening, which
again, to me, this, this opening with

Natasha and Clint, I think is the promise
of what the age of Ultron trailer was

putting forth because that trailer was
incredibly dark and incredibly menacing.

And the movie is a little
bit more, um, lighthearted.

Not that doesn't feel the right way.

It was more comical, I guess.

And even though I like it, this heavy
foreboding feeling of Ultron bonds is

what I was hoping for after that trailer.

So I'm glad we got a taste
of it here in this universe.

You know

Jude: what, let none that you say
that I want to ask Tara question.

Cause that's, I feel like you're in
a unique position to answer that.

As a puffy fan.

Do you think that that feeling and age
of Ultron that trade was talking about

has to do with Josh Weeden style versus
like mark Christopher, Marcus McFeely

who wrote, who wrote the other entries?

TK: I think so.

Um, in fact, as Trey was talking
about it, I was thinking to

myself, well, he just Wheaton did.

Um, which, you know, again, I huge
Buffy fan and, and I've been a big fan

of other projects from Wheaton as well.

And I think, uh, to Joss Wheaton, it is
not necessarily always a negative term.

Um, we were talking, we were talking
about his storytelling and his

writing, some of his personal stuff,
probably that, yeah, that's not good.

Um, but when, uh, yeah, I, I really
appreciate the, we didn't ask

aspects of Avengers and of age of
Ultron, but I do feel like the.

Moments.

There's the moments of levity.

You guys talk about this all the time.

There's the moments of levity
that work really well, that don't

detract from the storytelling.

And then there are sometimes moments of
levity or moments that do take you out.

Like there are absolutely some jokes in
age of Ultron that don't feel in place.

And that like this episode, for example,
to what you're saying, Trey, this

episode has some moments of levity.

It has black widow and Hawkeye
kind of like, you know, jabbing at

each other in a fun sort of way.

And it has even the watcher, you
know, being like, what the hell?

And you know, so it has, it has
these funnier moments, but it

doesn't, the tone is just different.

Jude: Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm curious, do your thing.

You know, part of me, you know, I
like that, you know, it's what if,

and this made me think, what if, uh,
a lot different ways could Ultron

have beat the anos that easily,

Trey: that has been the
talk of the internet.

And I don't know, like it's, I see
what the episode's going for, because

we talked about like the way Clinton,
Natasha pairing is a shorthand.

We know who those characters are.

We know what the relationship's like.

So it sells that beginning,
the Thanos moment.

It's like, okay, this is a shorthand
to show how powerful Ultron is

because they do away with them.

I think the moment that, that lost
me, speaking of like levity and not

feeling right, was the way he split.

There was something that
was too cartoonish about it.

And it was just like, ah, that,
that took me out of it for a second.

Yeah.

I don't know if that answered your
question, but that's, that's where

I immediately went with that scene.

TK: Yeah.

I feel like with that scene,
it definitely made me laugh.

And I don't know if, if that's what
they were going for or not, but I took

it the same way you did as like seeing
the infinity stone paperweights in

low-key like seeing banjos in a different
role in to Chella Star-Lord episode.

What we're kind of seeing is the MCU
saying banjos is not the end all be all.

Banjos is not the biggest threat.

The infinity stones are
not the biggest threat.

And like you said, kind of that shorthand
to just say this, the stakes are higher

than this, but that being said, you
know, at that moment it didn't completely

work for me just because he still had
five out of the six infinity stones.

And I feel like, I dunno, I don't
think that Dan would have been

that trusting in his approach.

Okay.

Ultron.

I don't know.

It was, it was silly,

Jude: right?

None of them.

And that was my thought too.

It was just like, cause you had that scene
in infinity war where they all came out

of him and he used the stone, um, various
stones to, to get them out of the way.

And I just thought, okay, that was kind
of a, how do we get infinity stones, the

vision Ultron quick, you know, and, and
relying on the shorthand of it makes sense

that Santos would show up with stones.

TK: Right?

Well, and speaking of shorthands too,
I feel like having captain Marvel in

here also, and I really love captain
Marvel as a character, but I was a little

surprised to see her in here as well.

And I was very much
sort of like, oh, okay.

Having captain Marvel.

And here is again, sort of the shorthand
for like, this is how powerful Ultron is.

Captain Marvel is not going to be.

Off world, captain Marvel is going to be,
you know, if I have to face off with him

and you know, she is not powerful enough

Trey: either.

Yeah.

Cause I mean, the way that plays out,
like it's midway through the episode or

maybe not even midway, but it's like,
oh, you know, here comes captain Marvel.

She's got them pinned down and
it looks like she's going to win.

And then he's like, you
know, you've already lost.

Or he says something to that extent.

And then he just immediately does a way
where there this one, I think worked

a little bit more than the Thanos
shorthand because it was like, oh, okay.

You know, uh, for a moment maybe, maybe
it seems like there'll be some sort of

conflict where captain Marvel stalls
them enough throughout the episode.

But then it was like, oh no, she's gone.

He's completely one.

Where are we going from here?

So, yeah, it's it's I guess what I'm
feeling now is just like we've within this

first act, we got three different examples
of the way they're using shorthand.

And it's interesting to see the
varying degrees of effectiveness.

TK: I just want captain Marvel, like to
get a little bit more of her own, and

I know the marvels is coming up, but
I think throughout what if she's been

kind of used in that same sort of way
of like, oh, we're going to put captain

Marvel in here to show how serious the
threat is or to show how, you know, it's

to show how powerful other people are.

Um, because she's so powerful.

So she's our shorthand for like the
most powerful person to fight, uh, who

was, you know, on the good guy team.

Um, so I'm, I'm just looking forward to
some captain Marvel stories that have

a little bit more nuance and allow her
character to, to be a little bit more,

um, you know, see what makes her tick and,
and be a little bit more personal to her.

Jude: No, you're right.

Because I don't, I mean, stepping
outside of the, what if, and this is

a place you could do it, you know,
explore that with, and they really

haven't done that, but otherwise we've
only seen captain Marvel in her movie.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, like I know showed up in.

Right, but it was just, um, so quick,
right at the beginning of the year

end and you really don't get much.

Trey: Yeah.

Well, Hey, maybe, maybe that's
what was being teased after

all with the nineties fashion.

And hopefully it is something we'll
get more, uh, Danvers front and center.

Cause, uh, there's definitely
definitely stories to tell there.

Totally.

You know, I do want to say this.

Um, cause I mentioned the priest.

What other thoughts do you and I, uh,
within these last two weeks have been on

polar opposites of the reception to these.

What if episodes?

And I mentioned that this episode
felt like the compromise between

what we wanted out of this series.

I wanted to highlight the thing that
I think works so well for me and feels

like that bridge between me and you
is we started from a familiar place,

but it took a less than a minute to
cover the ground with which we were

going to be covering because they
had like that, that cinematic, well,

not cinematic, that, that overview
narration of what happened in ages

Vultron but then it poses the question.

Okay.

But what if Ultron won?

And we got to see that buildup to,
you know, him succeeding and launching

the nukes and getting us to the
present day within the storyline.

And I thought that was such a
very effective way to get that

familiarity while also launching
us into something completely new

in such a minimal amount of time.

Jude: Well, it makes me wonder if they
were to rename the Killmonger episode.

Like, like, I dunno, I don't want to
get off on that tangent, but at the

same, but at the same thing, Where
it's like the name of the episode

is what of Killmonger save Tony?

And that ran its course so fast.

And then it's like, what's left.

But if you would've just titled it
would have killed monger one, you know,

then you like that you, you don't, you
might not feel like it ran its course.

So I'm just, and I, and I get,
you don't want two episodes with

the same name, like, like that.

Um, Hmm.

Interesting.

Trey: Yeah.

It's interesting to see the
way a simple framing can, can

alter alter the, uh, reception.

Jude: Oh my gosh.

So my students, we used to
have assignments that we would

just call like journals and
wouldn't really get good work.

I literally, one year we just changed the
title from journals to position paper.

Didn't change the assignment.

And all of a sudden, Ooh, position paper.

And they would like,
the quality went way up.

Trey: That's interesting.

Jude: Yeah.

It's crazy.

Finally, one student noticed and he was
like, we're not really giving a position.

I was like, no, but you
do better work with it.

So

Trey: that's great.

Well, you know, I think we're getting
close to the end of the act, but

I think we got one more thing to
talk about before we get there.

Uh, Tara, what did you think of Ultron
becoming aware of the watcher and the

watcher narrating it as it happened?

TK: I loved it.

I thought that was great.

I, you know, for a moment I was
like, okay, I'll try and is achieving

what he wants to achieve by.

Nuking every corner of the universe.

And that was kind of cool that
we got to see the different

planets that he was attacking.

Um, and then we'll, what's
going to be left, right?

He's going to just sort of
be alone and what comes next.

Uh, and then you have the watch
you're saying, you know, he's

ascended to this previously on a tape
obtainable level of consciousness.

And that moment when I'll try to
hear as the watcher, it, it was

funny to me, like, but not in a bad
way, it was just kind of like, oh,

of course this is what happens next.

Right?

Like, um, I, yeah, I thought it was great.

I've seen everything that
has ever happened ever will

happen ever could happen.

And yet what the hell is

Trey: this

such a great quote?

Yeah.

Jude: Yeah.

So, I mean, honestly, I was
curious, it was like, who

was the watcher narrating to?

And then it dawned on me.

It's like, oh, so.

They're truly narrating to us,
like breaking the fourth wall.

So we are in the MCU or
it's all just a simulation.

Trey: What do you think?

Uh, I think I gotta go y'all two can
take it from here, but no, you know, I, I

was talking to Jude earlier on the phone
and I'm glad you brought this up, dude.

It's so wild.

The, the conversations that have
spurred from the MCU now dealing

in the multi-verse because
I was in the Marvel studios.

And there was somebody who
was vehemently arguing.

Technically we're part of the MCU now.

And it's just like, it's like, it's funny
how far you can really take this if you

want, but to back up the person's claim,
dude, I think you're kind of right.

I mean, who else is the
watcher narrating to?

If not us,

TK: he even says, like, I
noted it in this episode.

And I think this was the first
episode that he uses this word.

I could be wrong, but he specifically
says in your universe and he talks

about how the Avengers were able to
take, uh, you know, vision's body.

Um, then he goes, but in this
universe and I was like, Ooh, the

use of the, your there very much
puts the viewer in this like, okay.

Art is, so is he saying that we,
as viewers are part of what Loki

called the sacred timeline, you
are the prime timeline of the MCU.

And what is, what does that
mean if they're acknowledging

that in a medicine sort of way?

Jude: Yeah, I think you're right.

I think that's the first
time he said, you're you.

Trey: It's definitely a line
that stands out for sure.

But, you know, I, I did want to say
this before we move into the next

act, you know, you were talking
about him realizing his purpose,

achieving everything, finding peace.

When he was standing on that
rock, I almost felt sorry for him.

There was something about like
that idea of him, like a program

completing its mission and then
just having nothing else to do.

And it looks like he's about
to just kind of power down.

And then that's when he gets, gets
notice of the watcher, the, the,

the ideas they're playing with
their, I don't know, it's both like.

Empathizing with him and also horrifying
at the same time, which is a weird

spot to be in with this episode.

Oh,

TK: totally.

I mean, if you think about horror, right?

Like the horror genre, the best or
the most terrifying villains or ideas

in horror are those things that feel
familiar and what scares people more

than actually like the idea of getting
what they, you know what I mean?

And not having that purpose anymore,
I'm telling you, man, like more and

more that I'm convinced that the big
idea of phase four is about purpose

because it keeps coming up and they
talk about it a lot in this episode.

Trey: Yeah.

That definitely tracks

Jude: glorious purpose.

It's a soul.

Trey: Well, unless there's
anything more, I think we can go

ahead and move into the next act.

So this act is going to take us
from Clint and Nat arriving at the

KGB archives as they're searching
for information about Zola.

And it will take us all the way through
the scene where they're in Siberia,

escaping from the Ultron bots, with
Zola and Clint sacrifices himself, so

that Natasha and Zola can get away.

So starting with you this time, Jude, uh,
is there anywhere you'd like to start?

Jude: You know what, okay.

I, I'm going to start here even
though I have better places to start.

Um, but my very first note Raiders of
the lost Ark, such a good movie, too bad.

Trey.

Hasn't seen it.

I have.

Oh really?

Oh, wow.

Oh man.

That's obviously a shock

Trey: man.

I'm sorry to steal your thunder here,
but I have seen, or so the last,

Jude: no, that's great.

That's that's fantastic.

Um, you know what, and actually, so let
me, let me go ahead and go from there

and just say, this was a note and I was
going to save it for stray thoughts.

Um, but I think this is
a good place to say it.

I cause cause you get it in
the first act and you get it.

Definitely the second, second act as well.

This was such a good, this episode
was such a good balance of the

old and new, and I think that's
why both of us ended up liking it.

Um, because you have that the
callback to winter soldier, right?

You have, but then the call back to, um,
in terms of location Siberia with civil

war, Um, it follows in, you know, that
Spider-Man tradition of an MCU tradition

really of referencing other movies, you
know, with the, the death star plans.

You're not in the main computer.

Um, although my ten-year-old her eyes
got really wide and desktop that star

wars, star wars part of the Avengers,
and then she started to think it could

be technically like, um, but yeah, so
I just love, love seeing those places

again, but, but in this time it felt
very fresh and not rehashed, so to speak.

Trey: Yeah.

It, it felt like a proper remix and it
makes sense that if this, what if is.

Taking what, like the pieces we know,
because I don't think you can do

a, what if and left unless you have
an established to contrast against.

So it takes things that we are
familiar with, but turns them new.

Um, and I think this episode succeeded in
that, and it makes me want to reevaluate

some of the harsher criticisms that I've
given Killmonger, because it's, I don't

think it's enough for me to just say
like, oh, I want something completely new

because this isn't technically completely
new, but it still worked for me.

Yeah.

TK: Yeah.

I loved seeing Natasha
with the red guardians.

Trey: Oh, yeah.

You know, before we started recording
and you said, oh, I'm so glad that

we're doing this episode together.

The reason the moment that came to mind,
as soon as you said that was exactly this.

Cause I was so excited to see what
you thought about that moment.

Jude: Yeah.

Well I'm so I'm sure, willing to bet Tara
has the same note as I do what a post.

TK: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Oh man.

So good.

Uh, well, you know, as you've
already mentioned, I've basically

changed my Twitter handle to
black widow fan girl, 2021,

Natasha, R I P E um, uh, yeah,
we're in the spoiler zone,

so spoilers friend gamer.

Okay.

Um, but uh, yeah, no,
I, I, I loved, I love.

That note of seeing her with the
shield and to the points that

you guys were making before.

And, and I, I love the way that you
brought that up Jude, cause I hadn't

really thought of it in that way, but
that's what makes it, where, what if has

succeeded or in those moments where it's
enough familiarity that you're, that

you feel comforted and you feel excited
about being in these locations again

and, and seeing them recontextualize.

Um, but also to your point, Trey
combined with the freshness.

So I think that, you know, seeing this
little nod to certainly something from

the comics, but also, you know, those
of us who are up-to-date with watching

phase four and have seen black widow to
see that, uh, that nod to red guardian,

I thought it was, it was really awesome.

It was so cool to see her with the shield.

Trey: Yeah.

Yeah.

It was a lot more emotional
than I was anticipate.

Like I'll be like, I got a, I
unfortunately got spoiled for that moment.

Cause somebody had like mentioned
like, oh, it was so cool getting

to see her pick up the shield.

And so I knew something similar was
coming, but even knowing that, like

just seeing her with the shield and
how, I mean, she looked happy with it.

Like it was just like, oh, this is,
this is elevated by what we have seen

in black widow and also something
on its own because this feels

like a different Natasha as well.

But those core elements of
the character is still there.

And it just, it made me
happy to see her with it.

If she becomes a mainstay past
this episode, I hope that she keeps

that shield because it's, it's
such a great look for black widow.

TK: Uh, we were talking about last night,
my guest, Michael and I were talking about

how, and maybe we'll, we'll get to this
later, but moving into the financial.

We have a sense of who we might
be seeing assembled together to

come up against this, this threat.

And, uh, we were putting our
bets on seeing Natasha with the

shield again in the next episode,
but I guess we'll wait and see.

Trey: Here's hoping.

Jude: Yeah, I hope so.

No, I was going to say it's
interesting that you mentioned that

she was happy to have a shield.

Like there was this familiarity and
I guess in our universe, our timeline

prime timeline or whatever, I don't think
she would have known about that shit.

At that point was she,

Trey: she may have known about it.

I don't think she would have been happy.

Um,

Jude: that's, that's probably
a better way to put it,

Trey: so, yeah.

Uh, it's, it's more evidence
of that lived in world.

Like, you know, the pieces, but here,
like enough to see what's different.

Jude: So with the Tara, with the
whole, you know, fangirl, micro fangirl

now, what did you think to, to see
that the, basically a reenactment,

maybe a recreation of the, that end
game sacrifice, but go the other way.

TK: I thought it was awesome.

And I think that.

This is another thing that what if
allows for even if we aren't getting

an episode, that is what if Clint is
the one who is sacrificed, as opposed

to Natasha, we still get to play with
that a little bit within this episode.

That's not about that.

It's about something else.

And I really appreciate that
because I don't think we want an

episode of what if it was Clinton
set up Natasha and that that's the

moment that things are different.

I don't think it would work as well, but
to see this play out, I think is something

that of course fans have wondered about.

I think it makes sense, right?

This is the universe in which
Clint has already lost his face.

And he tells her I don't
want to fight anymore.

And I thought that was
absolutely powerful.

I loved the characterization
of Clinton here.

Yeah.

And, uh, yeah.

And it, and not, it's not coming from a
facetious place of it should have been

Clint, which I know is a thing that's out
there and it, I, that's not how I feel

at all, but it was very, very satisfying
to see a different version of that play

out that felt consistent with the world
of this episode, which is not the same

world as the world of bang the game.

So I really liked

Trey: it.

Yeah.

Well, I got to say you, you put a
piece together for me that didn't

click until just now, but you're right.

That this is a universe in
which Clint has lost his family.

Like they make that, he makes that
realization when he says Laura, as

he's watching all the bombs go off
in the beginning of the episode.

So.

That we know how much that means to
him in the prime universe, not having

it here, it's it fits with what
the trajectory of his character is.

And, um, to, to speak about like, at
least for me that this is another one

of those moments where, because it's
a shorthand, um, I, I feel like they,

they borrow enough emotional weight
from what we know to really sell

it for me, because it was, it was a
hard moment watching them go for it.

And the way the shot is framed as
he's like falling and all the Ultron

bots are coming down, but the light
is like illuminating him just right.

Um, it's, it's such an incredible scene.

Jude: Well, in one of the things that I,
that I really liked about it is it's it.

And we said this, um, I think in
the very first episode and the

second where the person themselves
like to challah is good, right?

And you see what happened, like, like
him as a personality didn't change.

Um, Steve Rogers was Steve Rogers, even
though he didn't have the syndrome.

And in that way, I, I felt like we
kind of saw that with, um, Natasha and.

Clint, almost a Jeremy, uh, Natasha and
Clint, you know, and, and the, like their

character still didn't change there.

They still had that, um, that
care for each other, that,

that willingness to sacrifice,

Trey: you know, there's a moment that
I want to zone in on as I think the

strongest moment of this episode for
me, uh, Tara, you already alluded

to it a bit where the watcher was
like, you know, very frustrated by

how close they were to the answer.

And yet they were kind of pushing it away.

You know, as much as this season has
been about the watcher being like, I

could intervene, I could help, but I have
sworn this oath and I will not do that.

I cannot do that to.

Have the pressure of infinite old Tron
on his back while also in trusting the

fate of the multi-verse to these two,
as we said, non superpowered humans.

And let that be the standard
for the hope against all odds.

It's such a beautiful moment because
even though we know how this episode

ends with all that pressure, the,
the watcher still does not give in.

It shows humanity's resilience.

And that scene in particular just speaks
volumes about everybody within that scene.

And so I, I think that ended up being one
of my favorite scenes of this episode.

TK: Yeah.

I think that you stated that beautiful.

Did did either of you think that he was
going to intervene there for a moment?

Trey: Yeah.

Jude: I completely thought this is,
this is the moment that like, and I

don't know if I was, I don't know what
I was expecting if I was expecting him

to like step into the world or maybe
like make the box nudge, you know?

TK: Yeah.

I was wondering about that too.

Yeah.

To your point though, Trey,
I'm glad that he didn't.

Jude: Yeah.

Yeah.

I wouldn't say like that.

I mean, the way he to put it,
I, that would have taken away.

I think a lot from this episode.

Trey: Right.

And I think that's the
beauty of the scene, right?

It's like we've bent for better or worse.

We've been waiting for
this moment all season.

So the fact that we, as the
audience are like, yes, like, do

it intervene, finally, this is it.

And it still doesn't happen.

That is such great narrative tension
that has been built in to this moment

that I think worked really well.

Jude: Well, and you also have that element
of, if he did we leave Clinton a place

where he did, you know, fall to despair
and give up, you know, and I don't, that

would not have been very satisfying.

Trey: Yeah.

I love how immediately childhood
should be getting becomes where

he's like, Hey, that's my boss.

TK: Yeah.

I love that.

They kept up the banter,
you know, even in this.

Hopeless situation or a
situation that felt hopeless.

Right?

Uh, the fact that the two, those two
characters, even he says a lie in my will

til they've meter is lining and it's so
dark, but just, it was very, it felt very

Clint, you know, and in that moment I

Jude: thought it was great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It really works.

Trey: Jeremy, Renner's got such a
wonderful way of delivering over the top

lines, so straightforward that it sells
it, that like, yeah, that, that line is

an example of him being able to pull that
off and wonderfully, you know, cause we

we've talked about it before, how there
is definitely a distinction between like

physical acting there and voice acting.

And I think.

He definitely accomplished
that within the voice acting.

TK: Yeah, I thought he was fantastic and
I also really liked lake bell as Natasha.

Um, I thought that in the first
episode that she was in episode

three, it, it was a little jarring
at first because you're expecting

Scarlet Johansen's voice and, and she
didn't sound like Scarlett Johannson

to me in that third episode there.

Uh, so at first, you know, it takes
a little bit getting used to any

of the characters that we've seen,
who have in V who haven't been

voiced by the live action actor.

It's been the same, but I have to say,
I, you know, in this episode I felt

very much like this is the Natasha
that I know in love, but it is also

a different, a different universe.

And so there are these slight differences
to who she is and this slight variation

in the voice didn't bother me at all.

I thought it was a great performance.

Jude: Yeah.

Yeah, no, I think, I mean, just
across all the, the entire series.

You know, it had that, that feeling.

Um, but this, uh, or you said the name
like bell, uh, hers has been a standout,

Trey: I think.

And I'll have to reassess this,
but emotionally coming out of this

episode, my thought, I think of the
new voices to voice old characters

lake Bell's Natasha, I think is the
one that has worked the most for me.

I think she has captured
that spirit, um, a lot.

And she's, there's something to the
cadence of Scarlet Johansen's, uh,

Natasha that she has brought to this
character and is definitely is different.

And like you said, a bit jarring, but
it feels like the character to me.

And so that's what I appreciate
about her performance.

So, Tara, I do want to ask this because
if I'm not mistaken, the original Avengers

is among your favorite MCU movies.

How did it feel to see Hawkeye
bring out the USB arrow again?

TK: I loved it.

I loved that.

I loved that image.

It was fantastic.

Trey: Such an underlying
under-utilized weapon.

He needs to bring that out more

TK: often.

Yes, that was, that was so great.

Oh yes.

I have so many Hawkeye thoughts
now that I've been reading the, a

fraction math fraction comics too.

Oh, you picked that up.

Trey: Oh my goodness.

Jude: I love it.

Yeah.

And that is the whole Kate Bishop.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I really would like to
get a copy of that one.

Trey: I'm always so torn.

Like.

But I also want to experience
anything potentially first in

the either TV show or movie.

And so it's always hard to pick,
like when I can drop in on the CapEx,

TK: I can relate to that tray for sure.

I have to say it's working in my
favor for my excitement for Hawkeye,

because I haven't always been
like the hugest MCU Hawkeye fan.

Um, so to read the comics has gotten
me very, very excited for the show

in a way that I am not entirely
sure I would have been otherwise.

So good.

Oh, it's so good.

I might do.

Uh, it'll, it'll be spoiled for the
comic, but I might do a, a bonus episode

for the podcast in which I talk about
the comic or, or like, uh, getting

ready for Hawkeye preview episode
in which I'll allude to the comic.

So excited to talk about it.

Yeah, that'd

Jude: be awesome.

And see, now another reason I got to get
it and have it read, so I'm ready for.

Trey: Well, I think we got, well, I
personally have one more thing to talk

about before we move into the last act.

Uh, and it's just something that I
really want to praise about this episode.

Um, you know, we have that moment,
we talked about that moment

where Clint sacrifices himself
to stall for Zola and Natasha.

And we have that scene after Natasha's
morning Clint a little bit, and she

turns to Zola and question why he wasn't
able to successfully take on ultra.

And the way they build up
that scene, we're Zola's like,

Hey look, I'm being honest.

Uh, according to my calculations, if you
know, I should have been able to contract,

oh, contact Ultron, but wherever he is, it
is not within the, the visible universe.

The way that in this act and
leads us into the third act is the

most amount of momentum that this
show has had since the beginning.

And it was like truly thrilling
because they have, they had done such

a great job of building up Ultron,
giving us this potential solve to

it, and then it not working and the
way that all cascades into like this

horrified feeling of why it didn't work.

That is, that is what the feeling
I feel like I've been missing

within, within this series.

Jude: You know what I mean?

Peaked ahead.

I mean, I'm going to say just
like this, uh, the reviews.

And that moment we already talked
about was kind of had that as well.

Right.

We're we're vision, Ultron
turned and looked, you know?

And so, yeah, so I'm,
I'm with you on that.

TK: I think thrilling is a really great
word for it because it felt so engaging.

Like the action felt so engaging when
you see, you know, again, I guess

moving into act three, but when you
see the watcher and Ultron fighting

and that glass shattering image, and
then the punching and the going from

university universe was so exciting,

Trey: which speaking of, I think we
can go ahead and transition into the

final act, which as you were alluding
to, this is essentially the fight

with the watcher and, uh, infinite
old Tron, which will take us all the

way to the moment where the watcher
does decide to ask for, uh, Dr.

Strange has helped from episode.

And, and you're right.

Terra, that fight and the way that
it's just visually depicted, like every

punch that infinite old Tron through
change the universe in which they were

taking place in, like that is just
such a cool idea and a cool visual for

them to work with within this series.

And speaking of it gave
us president Rogers.

TK: Yes.

Oh man.

The more we talk about it,
the more I love this episode,

Trey: right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I, I, I texted a friend,
a personal ranking, and I think

this episode was episode my, my
third favorite of the season so far.

It's it's, it's, I'm
falling in love with it.

The more we talk about it.

Jude: Yes.

President Rogers, definitely
something I want to see.

Trey: You know, we, we were touching
on the fight a little bit before.

I'm sure we'll get into some
of the other aspects of it.

I wanted to highlight this because it
is something that definitely made me

laugh that I don't think was intentional.

Whenever the watcher and
a Ultron are fighting.

There's a moment in the scuffle where
you just hear the watcher grunts out.

I am the watcher and it was just like him.

It felt like him trying
to psych himself up.

And every time that I've watched
that moment, it cracks me up.

TK: I also felt like it was kind
of humorous the way that out of

nowhere, he just like levels up.

I mean, it's not out of nowhere.

It's when he says you cannot
compute the power of my will.

And he levels up all of a sudden,
and he's got like this new outfit on.

Trey: He went super safe.

Jude: Yeah.

Well, I think it goes to show
how much we don't know about the

Trey: watcher.

Yeah.

It's.

Again, I, I mentioned in the preschool
or thoughts, I'm trying to separate

the baggage of what didn't work of
the series and focus on the episode.

But if I can break my oath, I think the,
I think if we would have gotten more about

him that would have alleviated so much
more, because already mentioned the, the

strongest moment of the episode in the
previous act with the watcher, Natasha

and Clint, that this fight is as great
as it is because we got that moment.

We see, we saw the.

Representation of him
standing to his oath.

Then we get to this and we see
the external physical fight

of him standing to that oath.

And so we feel for it.

But I was thinking if we would've
just gotten a little bit more of

who he is or who he is beholden to
with this oath, we could have gotten

that much more drama out of this.

Um, so that that's me breaking my oath,
tiptoeing into what I think I would've

liked a little bit more from the series
itself, but you know, who would never

TK: break his oath?

Who president Steven Grant Rogers.

Trey: He did solomnly swear.

Jude: He did.

And he's gonna make like
a tree and tell, say, no,

Trey: That's uh, well this, maybe this
is why I'm not a, a campaign marketer.

I was about to say that would have been
a great slogan, but no, no, you move

is probably not the inspiring quote.

It is for a presidential run.

Jude: We're working it in there

TK: now to your point though, Trey, I
agree that I think if there had been

more steady character development for
the watcher, maybe throughout the series,

and as I said, you know, he's definitely
the, the through line that connects

all of this, but, um, yeah, I think, I
think there have been some things that

have worked in the way that they've
kind of slowly rolled out a little bit

more involvement from him, but to know
a little bit more about where this oath

comes from and, and why it's so important
to him, I think would have helped with,

uh, elevating the dramatic stakes.

Jude: Well in in it, but it
begs the question, right?

Who's the oath to, is it just to
himself or is it some part of agreement

that you get to do this and watch?

Cause, I mean, if you think
about, you just said, right.

He powered up.

And so if he has that level of power,
he's out side of all these universes

looking in, you know, to have that, oh,
that has to be to something or someone.

And do we see consequences in the
next episode of raking the oath?

Trey: Personally?

I, if we see any consequences, I think
it'll be a tease to season two, but yeah.

What do you think Tara, do you think will.

TK: I don't know.

I, I kind of think not, I mean, if
the finale is 30 minutes, they have a

lot to pack in there already with this
showdown between the watcher and who

my, my guest Michael referred to as the
vendors, which I thought was fantastic.

Um, whoever it is, he's going to assemble,
uh, I mean, this is a prediction.

I don't know if this is actually going to
happen, but, um, yeah, I, I'm not sure.

And I'll be honest too, thinking
about this idea about who is the oath

to, and what are the consequences.

I can't stop thinking about Eternals
and that similarity in this idea,

knowing all of what I know about
internals, only from the trailers, this

idea of not being able to intervene.

Unless, right.

There's the exception that they
mentioned in the second trailer.

So I've been thinking about that a lot.

And I'm like, is what if preparing
us for those mental gymnastics

in a, in a bit of a way so that
we're more prepared for internals?

Um, is it, is it somehow connected
in who this, this promises to?

I don't know.

Trey: Yeah.

You're reminding me of something that
has lived rent-free in my head, since

leach said it in the, what if friend
Daniel and leach hosted an episode.

She, she characterized what if, as Marvel
being like, okay, if Loki was too much

for you, this is going to be us holding
your hand through the multi-verse.

So even if you don't get it at
first, this is going to be the

way that we explain it to you.

You mentioning like maybe this being
a preparation for the eternal and some

of the mental gymnastics to those rules
that are arbitrarily set per characters.

Um, I think that fits, uh, whether or
not, I don't know if we'll ever know

if that is the intention of what, of
the creation, but it makes sense to

me, especially in the way that you
have characterized it into that point.

You mentioned about your guests calling
it the, the, if vendors and assembling

them on the topic of assembling.

Did any of you think that whenever Dr.

Strange was like cold shouldering
the watcher into saying it that

there was going to be some variation
of that Avengers assemble line?

Oh, I hadn't thought of that.

I kept waiting for it.

I thought that's the direction
they were going to go.

Because as much as a fan of apparently
the universes as the watcher is I

like the idea of him being kind of
a fan as well and getting to see

Jude: no, I'm just hoping next episode
he says if Avengers, like, like, like

I, I hope that we can look back and
be like, oh, he called it drug called

TK: try a psychic

Trey: again.

Yeah.

Hey, like we said, you're, you've
got a bit of that psychic trait too.

You were talking about, uh,
Clinton Natasha being the most

exciting thing in this year.

And here we go, this is the, this episode.

I

TK: was so excited when I saw the, the,
um, when I saw the episode description

on Disney plus for episode eight and it
said Natasha and Clint, I was like, yes,

Jude: now I did find it.

Interesting.

And I'm wondering if they were starting
to lay down the foundation of, well,

I'm assuming next week is a, is a part
two and this isn't a cliffhanger, right?

Trey: Um,

Jude: God, I hope so.

Yeah.

Cause just going off the others,
it, they have to continue it.

I can't imagine it being a cliffhanger
like the other episodes, but this

oh, but anything is possible in
the multi-verse, you know, I feel

like they're laying the groundwork.

Of how this is going to end.

Cause they did a stat.

We talked about it and established
how powerful this division Ultron is.

Um, and if anything's
possible, he can be defeated.

And I'm just curious, uh, which
like, are we going to see the

universe where Ultron vision is good?

And so they have to fight one on
each other, feels little rehash of

one division, but I know these were
written far enough out, you know,

I'm just curious of what that's
going to, what that's going to be.

And I feel like that's
what it was laid out for.

TK: Yeah.

Do we think it is going to be well,
what combination do we think it's going

to be of some type of mind game or
bargain, you know, to borrow from Dr.

Strange or trick or something like
that versus an all out physical battle.

Jude: Yeah.

Well, you know what, maybe this
is where white vision comes back.

The first Theseus or what,
as I'm stumbling my words,

TK: maybe the ship of Theseus is
more relevant than we even thought.

Like when we're thinking
about who these characters are

across the multi-verse, right?

Trey: Yeah.

It's the key to all of this.

It starts, it's what started phase four.

And it's going to bring it
all together at the end.

But now I I'm, I'm still stuck on what
you said Tara about, like, I think they're

going to continue this next episode.

I I'm like 90% sure they will continue
this, but I think that's very emblematic

of the season that they have trained
as this, to have this feeling where

at the end of something, so cool.

We're like.

Oh, man, please come through.

TK: Totally.

Cause there's no way that they
can pick up all of the threads

from all of the episodes.

I mean, they could of course sort
of say, okay, let's assemble captain

Carter and to Chella Star-Lord and
the Tasha with the red guardian

shield, the Disney store, by the way.

And I think, yeah, I think the
Disney store is, um, marketing her

as post-apocalyptic black widow,
which I thought was interesting.

I got an ad on Instagram.

It was like from shop Disney and
it was all of the latest, what if

merchant from the Disney store?

Because of course that's the Adam

Trey: getting.

Yeah.

Well, if it makes you feel any
better, it definitely tracks because

the, what if a Funko pop collector
Corps, they have that as the pop

and it's post-apocalyptic Blackwood.

Okay.

TK: So that's what she's being referred
to then, but yeah, I mean, so I feel like.

Uh, you know, and then I started
thinking, okay, so maybe we see and

Carter and to challah star, Lord,
obviously, you know, well, I'm saying

obviously I think we're going to
continue to see this version of Dr.

Strange.

Are we also going to see
Sheree and pepper Potts?

Like, are we going to go back
to these threads that the other

episodes have kind of left us with?

Like, are they all going to come together?

And I somehow think probably not.

Um, yeah.

I don't know.

What are you guys thinking?

Jude: I think you're right in
that 30 minutes is really short

to try to pull all these together.

Trey: It does have me worried because I
know Jude and I have definitely felt this.

I've be curious.

Have you felt this as well because you
cover the stories too on your podcast.

There seems to be.

And maybe it's even evident as
we're in this section now, by

the time you get to the end of
the story, it's the action stuff.

And there's not as much to
cover other than like, oh yeah,

this is the cool action bit.

I don't know what all they'll be able
to introduce and resolve in 30 minutes

while also probably being the action
field finale that it's leading into.

So yeah, I that's where the cautiously
comes into my cautiously optimistic

part of my pre spoiler thought.

TK: Yeah.

Uh, low-key finale and just
have a couple of characters sit

in a room together and talk.

Trey: That would be amazing.

Jude: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean maybe Dr.

Strange and original Tron played,
you know, a rousing game of chess

winner take all.

Trey: Well, unless there's any more, uh,
I think we can move on to stray thoughts.

So this is the section for us to just
kind of broad strokes, anything we may not

have gotten into during the act breakdowns
of what we thought of this episode.

So, uh, Tara, where, what
stray thoughts do you have

TK: right now?

My stray thought is about how, if we are
fantasy drafting and if vendor team I

want, I want president Rogers to be on it.

Yes.

Um, so that's where my mind is going.

Who else would we want on the team?

Um, but as far as the
episode itself, I think.

Yeah, I think the only other thing that
I had noted again, was this emphasis

on this idea of purpose and Ultron,
struggling with this idea of purpose.

And that's just something that I've been
tracking on my show and looking at some

of the bigger concepts that we see tying
the different phases of the MCU together.

And, and, um, you know, I don't know
to what extent maybe I can go back

and try to do this, that, you know,
to track that concept throughout all

of what if, but it certainly felt like
it was a big part of this episode.

And then it makes us wonder
about the watcher too, as,

as we already said, right?

Like what exactly is the Watchers
purpose in this watching that he does?

And, uh, ad who's directive is that, so,

Jude: and I feel like that
we're going to find that out at

some point season two, maybe.

Um, but I would, I would
really like to know.

Trey: And, you know, to play off of that,
I don't know, to what extent you can

take the Stanley cameos at face value
of whether it's like, Hey, these are a

hundred percent canonical, or these are
stretching the limitations of what is

the, the Canon, but we've already seen,
was it in guardians to where Stanley

was talking to some of the Watchers?

So whenever you two are talking
about like, Hey, who is this oath to?

The thing I think about is who those
peers are and what, you know, what role,

if any, do they play to this winter in
particular that we've gotten to know?

I'd be curious to see that

TK: for a second.

I thought you were going to say that it
made you curious to wonder if Stanley

was the one that they made the oath to.

Trey: Hey, maybe.

I mean, if we're part of the MCU.

It's fairly, it goes
all the way to the top.

Oh, I like that.

I changed my stray thought.

It's that one?

Jude: I thought you were
going to say that too.

Yeah.

Trey: Uh, what about you, dude?

You got any stray thoughts?

You know, it's

Jude: interesting.

Um, one of my stray thoughts was
actually, I'm sad that we won't get to

see Jeffrey Wright and Stan Lee together.

Um, you know, cause I, I would like
to see the live action of this.

Um, I was wondering if one of those
arrows, how can I use specifically, like.

The net when maybe, I don't know, uh,
was that the arrow, he was talking to

Kate Bishop about being too dangerous.

Oh, I'm just kind of wondering about that.

I thought it was kind of silly that, you
know, they shot out Zola's Ultron legs.

Cause now, you know, you gotta carry them.

Um, like, oh, that, that
didn't quite work out.

Um, I did wonder

Trey: weeks to Natasha strength though.

Like Yoda,

Jude: you know, I did find it interesting
that in wonder like the, the fact

that Barton died and had to sacrifice
himself is that moment, one of them

having to do that or make that decision
kind of an absolute point, uh, in, in a

similar way of, uh, Christine's death.

Um, and then the last two, uh, I want to
find out that the tentacles is actually a.

And I really wish they would have
got James Spader or Paul Bettany

back for the vision Ultron voice.

Um, that was one where like you
could tell they were trying to do

a James Spader, but it was like,
it just wasn't working for me.

And, and I would have liked
to have to have had that back.

I don't know that Spader, but
I'm pretty sure they could have

gotten all that needed to do this.

So those are my stray thoughts.

What about you, Trey?

Trey: I'm going to immediately go
to bat for Ross Markwan who is the

actor that voice Spader to clarify.

I don't think you can replace Spader,
but the fact that Ross Markwan got

within the ballpark of capturing that
essence of Ultron, I thought it was

really good and it did work for me.

It could be I'm slowly
becoming a Ross mark on fanboy.

He was in the walking dead.

I liked him there.

I liked what he was able to do with the
red skull and was pleasantly surprised

to see that he was old Tron here too.

So, um, it, it did work for me.

Um, but I think it's just an
insurmountable task of trying to recreate

that Spader voice, but to your other.

It does make sense that, you know, Paul
Bettany is already working with this show.

Um, it seemed like it would
have been a natural fit.

Uh, other, uh, other stray thought
love the shot of infinite old

Tron eating the galaxy, which is
a nice nod to Galactus, I think.

Uh, and then finally, the last stray
thought that I have the watcher

is essentially all of us, whoever
talks at the TV screen, whenever

our characters are not doing what
they want, doesn't want them to do.

TK: It's right there.

It's right there.

Trey: What are you doing?

TK: Come on Dora.

Jude: Oh my gosh.

I

Trey: knew you'd be back.

Steve.

Jude: It look the number of times I
heard my kids yelling go, Dora, go

swiper, no swiping swiper, no swiping.

Oh goodness.

It's a clue.

It's a clue.

You know what?

One of my favorite things
and I, and I maintain this or

are you talking like morals?

And my students.

I'm like the joker in the dark night and
swiper, the Fox is the same character.

TK: They both have to talk
about this at some point.

Jude: Hey, I mean, think about
what swiper does whenever he

successful, instills anything.

All he does is just turn and
throw it in the background.

He doesn't keep it for himself.

Piper just wants to watch the world burn.

TK: Oh man.

The crossover content.

I did not know I needed.

Trey: I've been excited to do the
Nolan Batman coverage with you.

At some point I've never been
more excited than right now.

That's fantastic.

Well, I didn't, uh, I didn't expect that
is where our stray thoughts would have

taken us, but that is it stray thoughts
that indeed is our straight thoughts.

Uh, but we are going to do
the listeners first takes.

So if you're new to this segment,
essentially, uh, we've been reaching

out on social media, asking people
what they thought of the episode, and

we read some of the responses here.

So, uh, starting with this one, we get
got this one in on Twitter from kin,

which says, quote, I'm glad there's a
sort of cinematic buildups slash into

the season, as opposed to disjointed.

One-shot seeing ultra and turn around
to say, I see you or something like

it to the washer was super creepy.

Who watches the watcher old Tron.

Yeah, I think Ken did a wonderful
job of summarizing that and I

love the way he phrased it as who
watches the watcher old shrine.

Yeah.

Jude: Uh, our next one, why did
they have to replicate mayor scene?

I cried enough at the end of infinity war.

Uh, Ben Maddie on Instagram.

Um, yeah, like that's it.

And that's the interesting thing is
it's recreated in a different spot

and it still got you in the fields.

Trey: Oh yeah.

TK: This one breaks our heart.

Trey: Yeah.

Yeah.

You're not the only one
who was crying then.

TK: So the next comment comes from
friend Daniel, who I will be working

with on my show next week, actually.

So you can look forward
to hearing him over there.

The universal friend of the internet, as
he's now called, and he wrote satisfied.

Trey: I was so hoping because when we
first started doing this, the first

one that he did was on the, what
if zombies and he just put creepy.

And then the next one, I forgot
what he put, but it was two words.

And I was so hoping he was going
to continue the trend where each

week would just be another word.

And it's his review.

Jude: Well, and the thing is, is
he was on and he had to read his.

And it was like, Hey, this works for me.

And then he spent the whole pot of like,

TK: no, it didn't work for him.

Yes.

That was great.

That was my favorite thing.

Trey: I swear.

We, I legitimately think we tampered
with the multi-verse by how we frame

those episodes as both leech and
Daniel being from those respective

universes where they did the, what if
episode, it will, the moment you just

described Jude was so hilarious where
he had to read his disagreeing thought.

And then whenever we did it with
a leech and we spent the whole

episode just not liking the episode.

And then we got to the audience
first takes and he was loved.

It loved it, loved it.

I was like, you know,

Oops.

We have broken the univer.

Jude: Hey, you know, it's either
multiple universes or a simulation.

We'll find out

TK: right.

There's one last comment
from a listener, right?

It says, oh, it seems
like it's from Ultron.

It says, call me, I'll try.

And Trey, would you like to play a

Trey: game?

TK: He didn't sign it though.

It didn't say that it was
from Twitter or Instagram.

So

Trey: yeah, they're definitely
reaching out from somewhere

Jude: from the deep
spacious of the internet.

I'll try on is mainly code.

Trey: I just want it on the record.

I said I loved Ross.

Markwan your voice was fantastic.

Please go easy on me.

Oh, real.

Well, those are our listener first takes.

So, uh, we're gonna be doing this as
we move through the Disney plus series.

So if you want to get in on that
and make sure you're following us on

social media, uh, to chime in with the.

But, yeah, I think that's
going to wrap up the episode.

Uh, Tara, thank you so much
for doing this with us.

It was an absolute blast.

TK: Thank you.

Yeah, this was really fun.

And I really enjoyed this episode
and talking with you all about it

has made me appreciate it even more.

And, uh, as always, all our conversations
always leave me wanting more MCU and

wanting to dig into it more with you guys.

And so I absolutely appreciate
you having me on the show.

Trey: You.

Anytime my pleasure.

And of course, if you want more of
Tara's insights, you definitely should

be following them on Twitter and
Instagram at an idea underscore podcast.

And like we mentioned, in this episode,
she has just recently put out an episode

covering the last three episodes of
what if so, if you want even more

dive into the story, make sure you're
following her on apple podcasts, Spotify,

Stitcher, or wherever you find podcasts.

By looking up, there was an idea, a
Marvel cinematic universe podcast.

And as for this show, if you want more of
this, you can follow us on social media

at Twitter and Instagram at MCU, you
need to know is where you can find us.

Uh, we've been doing a lot of great work
to put up extra content from the episodes

that doesn't make it into the feed.

So if you want to see extra, as you can
see it there, uh, we've been putting up

our personal first takes of the episode
the day of if not the day after, as a way

to get an insight to what we think before
the episode drops on Monday, uh, as well

as, uh, voting on which quote from the
episode, it becomes our podcast title.

So if you want to get in on the action
and helped shape this show in a more

direct way, make sure you're following
us on social media, uh, at MC you need to

Jude: know, and of course, and then scroll
down to the bottom of the show notes.

You can click a link and join the discord,
uh, w where you find a good community that

loves the MCU, uh, pop culture in general.

Wonderful conversations when you
go there and make sure you click

on the role assigned channel, click
on the emojis and it'll open up

all the spoiler channels to you.

Also, please leave us a rating
and review on apple podcast or

wherever you listen to your podcast.

And the best thing you can do
for us is share with a friend.

Trey: Yeah.

We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for
the use of our theme song, which is

his rendition of the Avengers theme.

Find more of his work on the SoundCloud,
which is also linked in the show.

Well, that's going to do it.

Uh, Tara and Jude.

Thank you so much for doing this.

TK: Thank you for having me.

Trey: We'll see you all next week.

well, uh, regarding the episode,
has everybody gotten the outline?

Has everything updated accordingly?

I laugh.

I don't know if you saw this Tiki.

Uh, Jude and my ever professional nature
was messing around with the outline.

You may see an image of party Thor.

It's just a retaliation for
something else he was doing.

TK: Okay.

This is wonderful.

I'm going to check it out now.

I, uh, so usually I make a copy
and then do notes separately, but I

did revisit the outline again today
because I wasn't sure if you added.

Article, and it looks like
you did add another article.

Uh,

Trey: um, the other thing, I don't know
if you're familiar, but, uh, Tara, we've

been doing a new thing at the end of the
episode after stray thoughts where we do

the listeners first takes, um, it's up to
you if you would like to join in and read

one of them, or if you want us to, uh,
to read it all and you can just chime in,

if there's anyone that speaks out to you.

Um, if you're game to read, I think
the, well, the way it played out

this week is C is a very short one,
but that, that would be the one

that you would, uh, be able to read

TK: Peter read.

See, especially because it comes
from friend Daniel and you know,

he's going to be my guest next week.

Oh,

Trey: perfect.

Okay, cool.

So I need to point out the
reason why I just dang it too.

The reason why I stumbled
when I copy pasted, I didn't

realize I copy pasted you.

I see you tray.

This is your controller,
the simulation reaching out.

So that gave me pause.

But, uh, if that is what's on
the outline, I'm sorry to K that

Jude: so professional.

Well, I don't know if you saw it live,
cause I knew you were on there editing.

That's when I started typing
because I was hoping you'd see it.

Trey: Yeah.

I caught one.

I didn't cut.

Catch them all.

Y'all

TK: trench.

That's great.