Trey: Hello and welcome back to
another episode of MCU Need to Know, a

podcastdedicated to the Marvel cinematic
universe and everything you need to know.

I'm Trey

Jude: I'm Jude.

How are you doing Trey?

Well, Jude I'm excited because
today we are joined by a long-time

guest host first-time guest.

He's a fantastic writer and an avid
fan of pop culture, which makes him

the perfect guest for today's topic.

Trey: We're delighted to
welcome JB, back to the podcast.

Welcome JB.

Jude: Yeah.

Welcome Jamie.

Hey, it's good to have you.

JB: Hey Jude.

Jude: How's it going?

Okay.

Hold on.

I'm going to start right off
the top and say thank you so

much for filling in for me.

Cause I didn't.

And I know I've told you that before,
but I'm going to make sure it's on pod.

Thank you so much for filling in
for me when, when that situation

came up, I really appreciate it.

JB: Well, I'm happy to, to repeat what
we, what I said before that it was

100% of pleasure and so much more, um,
so, so much easier, you know, I mean,

I was, I think a lot of people get
nervous about even things like this.

And, uh, I was very nervous
that that time, I, it was a

little bit last minute too.

Like I didn't have a whole
lot of time to prepare.

Jude: Yeah.

So yeah, this was like, it was did
to us and me as such a huge favor.

I really, I appreciate

JB: that.

It's just such a great, like the
atmosphere that you guys create,

even Trey created just made me
feel comfortable right away.

So it was, it was 100%.

My pleasure.

And like I said, the only thing that
was missing from that day was Jude

to compliment each other.

And for me to, uh, and to check
my comic book knowledge, that was,

Trey: yeah.

Yeah.

I'm, I'm so excited to finally
make this meeting happen.

You know, I, I feel bad because you
talked about how you didn't have much

of a runway up to that episode, and then
we gave you the world's longest runway

since your last appearance for this one.

So it has been a long time
coming, but we're, we're delighted

JB: to have you back.

I'm just happy to be here.

Super

Trey: happy.

Well, and for those who don't remember,
uh, we had you on just over a year

ago to kind of give us an introduction
to the moon Knight character.

And this was like way before we had
any trailers or inkling of who was

going to be involved in this show.

Uh, so I kind of wanted to follow up
just a little bit with what you thought

of that first moon night trailer.

That right there.

That's all I need to know.

JB: Let's just cut it right there.

Jude: I like to think Nick Sandy for,

JB: uh, yeah, I mean, it was, it was
everything I could've possibly hoped for.

I mean, I there's, you know, I
won't go beat by beat obviously.

Cause there could be like a whole other
podcast just talking about the trailer.

Um, but the, the hallway beat
down scene and the fact that that

does not look like a human being.

That he's beating up, uh, is, was probably
the most exciting part because we talked

a lot about getting into the supernatural
realm, like the Marvel supernatural stuff.

And, uh, that seemed to me like
the biggest clue that that's

going to happen in one night.

And I guess the costume too was
sort of a clue as well, but you

never know is that, you know, is
imagining that, is that real or not,

but yeah, I was very happy for that.

I don't think I could have been happier.

Jude: Yeah.

Yeah.

It was, well, anything we talked about
a train, I was just how cinematic it

looked, especially compared to the
other Disney plus shows, you know, it

just, it, it felt like a different,
different level, so to speak.

JB: Yeah.

It's it's way darker.

I mean, you know, visually I think even
than anything that's been on D plus so

far, um, and which is, you know, perfectly
suited to the character and even, even

when he's wearing a bright white suit, I
could just, the darkness of the subject

matter was reflected in this photography,
which is just, I just cannot wait.

Trey: Yeah.

Yeah.

That makes me so happy to hear
that you were enjoying it.

Cause I remember you talking about
how much that character meant to you.

Uh, so yeah, I'm glad we got to get that.

Follow-up

JB: probably my second favorite
street-level character, I

would say after Daredevil.

Jude: Oh, nice.

Nice.

Trey: So, yeah, of course, if
you'd like to keep up with more

of J B, make sure you're following
them on Instagram at JB love SAV.

Uh, I know you've got a lot of
great work going on right now

with some screenwriting stuff.

So, uh, that is a great place to keep
tuned for any further notes with that.

JB: Yeah.

I appreciate that.

Trey has been kind enough to actually
read and give notes on, on pilots and

they were wonderful notes in fact,

Trey: oh man, I'm so
thankful for the opportunity.

That was really cool to
you to get into that.

But yeah.

Well, if you downloaded this
episode, then, you know, we're

going to be talking about when did
Marvel fix its villain problem.

Uh, the way we're going to do this
is we're going to start with this

question, which I think will help
set the stage for what we're looking

at when it comes to villains.

Uh, as we get into this
question, so J B starting with

you, what makes a good villain?

JB: So I think it's, it's gonna come
down to a matter of opinion because

the very first thing I thought about
when, when I looked at the question

was how do we define a villain?

And I think different people probably
like different kinds of villains.

I pretty much split it into
two camps, which are my notes.

I just categorized as a sympathetic
villains and unsympathetic villains.

Trey: And

JB: yeah, I mean, I think it's it,
it's the only way I could kind of

wrap my head around it, honestly,
at least in terms of the MC.

And personally, I like
unsympathetic villains.

I like a villain that you can see
their justification, but that you

don't, you're not really led to buy it.

And when we get to my favorite bill and
I can talk about that a little bit more.

Jude: I like that tease.

Yeah.

Trey: Nice.

I really liked that a lot.

That's a, that's a cool way to look at it.

What about

Jude: you dude?

Similar to JV?

I, as I think about that question, my
categorization, I guess, was there's

the villain that's like clearly like
young, he, in terms of the shadow,

like, like, oh, that's just our
hero, but you know, gone wrong them.

But then there's the villain who, like
you said, we can see that justification

that you can, it's more of a opposing
philosophical views and, and you're

seeing them battle it out that way.

So those are the two kinds of
categories that I, that I have.

I don't know which one I could say.

I like more though, only because like
the first one there is, and I even tell

my students this there's this trend of,
like, there are certain things that are

very just, you know, who's good, you know,
who's bad and you just watch it enjoy.

And then more recently.

And when I say recently, I mean, like not
within the past 10 years, like say the

past 20, 25, you know, 20 years, right.

There were like 2000 to now, which
is so weird to say it that way.

Now I was thinking about it.

But, but in other words, you, we start
finding more morally complex villains.

You know, I think of like game of Thrones,
I think of breaking bad texture, walking

dead, even some stuff in the MCU where
it's like, like you are not, you're evil

are, you know, kind of dominate the world.

It's more about philosophical principle
and, and do, and it might be a means

problem, but you don't really disagree
with, you know, so, so I do see that and

find that interesting a shift and how
villains are, have become more complex.

So, and I don't know if
I, if I have a preference,

JB: I definitely, I said, I, you know,
I, like I said that, I think Michael

was that I like on sympathetic villains,
but I like sympathetic villains as well.

But if I'm forced to choose,
do you know what I mean?

But even like you like a, you
know, the, the age of the mustache

twirler and that's cool, like,
you know, even an unsympathetic.

Should have some kind of
relatable justification.

You don't have to buy
into that justification.

Right.

But I think it's, it's, it's, there's more
depth to it to at least be able to say,

well, I can see where they're coming from.

Jude: Yeah.

Trey: Yeah.

I think that has definitely been
the hallmark, uh, uh, or at least a

commonality between some of the most
praise, the villains in the MCU is that

being able to look at and understand why
it is, they're doing the things that.

Which I think like, just to, to come
in and answer on this question, uh, I,

I kind of broke it down to three broad
archetypes that I, uh, that I personally

enjoy and think make a good villain.

There will always be exceptions
to the rules, but I think these

are kind of the key things.

And the first one for me, I think
villains are the manifestation of the

problem that the protagonist is facing.

Uh, so we talked about it whenever
we did our winter soldier, how our

winter soldier coverage, how you know,
Bucky is the problem in a nutshell for

Steve Rogers, like he is the ideals
of the past stuck in a modern setting

that has been warped, which is what
Rogers is going through in that movie.

You can see it also in, uh, he who remains
from low-key for me, he, who remains

is the embodiment of futility, which is
exactly what Loki and Sylvia are going

throughout the entirety of that show.

Uh, so that's one.

Thank you.

That is one of the broad strokes.

Uh, the second one for me, uh, villains
are the failed version of the trial

that the protagonist is going through.

So you can look at Obadiah.

Stain is the person who could not
give up the loss for power and

making money off those weapons,
which is exactly what Tony is able to

reconcile by the end of that movie.

Uh, Uh, when we wasn't able to escape the
allure of the rings, where as shonky was,

and finally, uh, villains I think are
also at their best when they are doing

the wrong things with understandable
reasons, kill monger, I think is one of

the most famous examples that we have
where he has a goal that on paper is,

you know, you know, equity for more
people, which is a lot of will cause.

But the extremes at which he goes
through is obviously what makes him

a villain and vulture, I think would
be another example of that as well.

He's somebody who was just trying to
make a living after the unfairness,

at which the people who caused the
problem are also making the money

off, fixing the problem as well.

And so you can understand
why he does what he does.

Uh, so those three archetypes, I think,
are what make a good villain, uh, at least

where, what I'm looking for in the MCU.

JB: Thanks.

So I'm gonna disagree
with you at some point.

Yeah.

When we get to my favorite villain,
which I really like you're teasing

that, but I don't want to jump ahead.

Yeah.

But, uh, yeah, I think it's a, it's just a
question of, do we buy that justification?

I think that there are villains where
you can, you can, you can sympathize.

That's why I say sympathetic
and unsympathetic.

I think there are villains where
you can sympathize with them.

You can completely agree that they're.

The methods are terrible.

I actually think Killmonger is
one of those people that you can

strongly sympathize with, but he
just does so much terrible stuff.

Yeah.

But sometimes I think it's just an excuse
for a character that is just so deeply

flawed that they cause more trouble
than, you know, than, than create good.

And they don't really care.

You know, I liked the fact of a, a
moral spectrum where, you know, most

of us fall in the middle, but there,
like there are extreme ends, you

know, there are extremely virtuous
people and people that you could

very convincingly argue are evil.

Jude: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, spectrum, for sure.

You used the word virtuous and I,
I would say use the word vicious

on the other end of that spectrum.

Trey: So yeah.

Well, I am definitely curious for the
disagreement whenever we get to that.

Uh, so let's go ahead and move into
the next section of our outline, you

know, in, in terms of, of villainy
the MCU, I think has infamously had a

problem with its villains where they
were always one note, uh, or something

that wasn't worth writing home about
whenever the movies would debut.

So we're going to tackle
the question today.

When did Marvel fix its
villain problem, if at all?

Uh, so Jude I'm a 30 year this time.

When did you think Marvel fixed it?

Jude: That's interesting.

Well, the only reason I say that is
because like, just listening to all

of what we just said, um, no, I'm
not going to do realist, but like,

well, my, my thought was like, did
Marvel really have a villain problem?

I don't know if they did

JB: just to back you up.

Like, I think, uh, I, I sort of wanted
to get more clarification on what that

question means to you, Trey, because
I have, I definitely like have my

interpretation of what that question is.

Well, it might

Jude: be different.

Well, I'll say like, I know what
it meant and going into the pod.

Right.

And, and I'm with tray on the whole,
the idea of one note, one, one

dimensional, not a lot of depth, but
when thinking about what all of us

said and that idea, you know, to use
Jamie's words, the mustache twirling

going away thinking about all that
made me question, it's like, okay,

wait, was it really a villain problem?

Or was it part of.

Evolvement of, of content and
the audience, what the audience

wants out of the content.

And it's like, no, these would
have been perfectly fine.

Villains if we all accepted just the
mustache, twirling villain, you know,

not trying to destroy the premise part
of the pitch, but just no, no, no, no.

But just listening to the opening
of the conversation and thinking

about, okay, in that context, when
did they solve the villain problem?

You know, uh, the one dimensional
lists and getting away from that, man,

honestly, I would have to say that
doesn't happen until homecoming in 2017,

uh, which is what 1, 2, 3, the fourth
movie in phase three, which is also

interesting because I think, I think
some people had problems with vulture.

I didn't, but just with w th the
conversations we just had in mind and

thinking about what, what that means.

I

JB: mean, I think it could, I would
definitely have an answer to that

question, but like you, I think it's
like, It is like, like there's an

even deeper explanation behind the
mustache twirlers, you know what I mean?

Or like why the villains weren't
compelling enough or, cause I think

that was like how it sort of hit me.

Like, you know, when did we get to a point
where we were as interested in the villain

as we were in the hero, as opposed to,
oh, this, this guy is just an obstacle

for the Euro to get past, you know,
and definitely in those early movies,

there's a lot of just obstacle villains.

Trey: So, I guess like just to, to
respond, uh, because you were asking about

what that meant to me, Ironman, I think
is, is responsible for obviously a lot

of the MCU, but we hit some pretty rough
patches before things started getting

a more smooth ground, uh, incredible
Hulk, you know, abomination, not, I

mean, I I've always had a soft spot,
not necessarily the most complex villain

iron man to think Jude nigh toward that
movie just shreds when it comes to it.

That's

JB: where I keep going in my head.

When we talk about mustache,
rulers and bad villains, I

keep going back to whiplash.

Trey: Yeah.

I think the, the MCU has had a very
staggered history when it comes

to, to the villains and Jude, I'm
fascinated by your response because

I never thought about what it would.

I never thought about it as a shift
in the culturals reception of wanting

more complex villains like that.

Um, and attributing the
shift within the MCU.

Because again, this is
a large span of time.

It makes sense that what the
audience is expecting would change,

you know, within that timeframe.

Uh, so that that's been given me
something new to think about as well,

but, uh, I just wanted to make sure I
jumped in and answered your question

JB, to kind of solidify where I'm at.

Uh, as far as the question
of the outline goes

Jude: well, and as I probably could.

Decent argument for Ironman three,
as well as, as in the, in the, in

the phrasing we're using, uh, not
fixing the villain problem, but

taking a step in that direction

Trey: as far iron man, three being
the, where they fixed it, or,

Jude: uh, I would say taking a step in
that direction got necessarily where

it was fixed, at least to my mind a, of
the context we're using it and stuff.

Because if you think about the
setup with, um, Aldrich, right.

And the, uh, I know it's not
a lot of people's favorites.

I know we love it.

Um, but, but if you think about
the motivation and the setup of

that rock, bottom of despair,
you get in the beginning and then

what that drives them to there.

It's you get a little bit more solid
motivation than just the mustache

twirling kind of, kind of thing.

But I don't think though, because of
the extent it goes, that's why I would

settle on homecoming and vulture over.

Uh, Aldridge Gilead.

So

Trey: JB, I

JB: I'm just going to agree
with you guys that I'm actually

an Ironman three apologists.

Jude: You came to the right place.

JB: Oh yeah.

There's a lot.

There's a lot of like in
the lot I like in that.

Trey: Yeah.

I think, uh, that was one of our most
highly praised entries in the MCU on this

podcast that we recorded, because it was
just a glowing review the entire time I

knew we were in good company, but no, I,
I was, I was going to throw to you JB.

I know you asked for clarification on
the question and responded a little

bit to do, but I want to make sure
to give you the, the spotlight here.

Uh, where did you think
Marvel fixed it if at all?

JB: So actually I would go
a little earlier, but I want

to make a point about that.

I think ties into everything
that we've been talking about.

And it's something that I kept thinking
about when I was thinking about

these quote unquote, bad villains or
unimpressive or not compelling villains.

And one of the things that Marvel
did a lot early on was there's

a villain behind the villain.

Right.

And the primary obstacle villain in
the film is not the biggest threat.

Like they're actually like,
you know, whiplash is just

being manipulated by a hammer.

Really.

It was just in the, Hammer's
really the villain of that piece,

but like whiplash presents as
the villain of Ironman to, right.

Right.

And then you get in three and
Kilian is sort of in the background,

even though like, the reason that
I love that movie is because of

it is very much man versus self.

It is very much, you know, only
dealing with PTSD from, you

know, nearly dying and Avengers.

And I think one of the, one of the reasons
I liked that movie so much as it grounds

the events of Avengers in a big, big
way, by having Tony deal with it, not

like a comic book superhero, would you
generally just move on to the next, you

know, plot device or the next crisis.

It dealt with the events of, of
injures the way a human being would.

And I think like, you know, there
are definitely flaws in that movie,

but that's one of the great, great
things about it is I think it was

maybe the first movie to really, to,
to sort of merge the street-level and.

You know, cosmic level where,
and that was the greatness of

the early Marvel comics, right.

Is, you know, you had the very realistic
human reactions to these big events.

Jude: They had real problems.

And the whole point of putting them
in New York, rather than, uh, this

isn't a knock on DC, but rather
than creating a city like Gotham or

metropolis that Marvel intentionally
wanted it and something people were

JB: familiar with.

But yeah.

So to get back to the question, sort of
on the same track is, is, um, we have

the villain behind the villain, like
several times in a row, like where,

you know, uh, even Trevor Slattery,
you know, we think he is the Mandarin.

Well, he's not, there's a bill and behind
him, we get to low-key and Avengers.

And to me that I think, I think
low-key in Avengers is a great villain.

And I think it's because of.

We haven't, we haven't
delved into low-key yet.

Like the turn has not happened.

Loki has not become a complete
individual, at least to me at that

point, like the Avengers was one
of the movies that I rewashed and

Natasha says, and it's a strong, she
says he killed 80 people in two days

that he was a straight up villain.

You know, you sort of have to scrub.

The stuff you know about Loki
that happened after that.

When you think about that movie was really
sort of enlightening watching it again

and forgetting his turn and forgetting
the events of the looky TV show.

You Savage.

He kills a lot of people.

He does a lot of harm in
that movie, but even then,

Trey: sorry.

Good.

I was just going to say, just to
like go out on that limb with you.

Whenever I made the promo for
our social media asking what, who

was everyone's favorite villain?

I anticipated getting some pushback
by including low-key because like

you said, he's had this turn,
he's become like a fan favorite.

So anticipating that I specifically
use the scene where he is gouging, that

person's eye for the access cards, because
that is a pretty quick way to remind

people he was a villain with a capital V.

Jude: Oh yeah.

Right.

JB: That's not, that is
not the low-key of Loki.

And that's, what's so great
about the show low-key too, is

they don't shy away from that.

They force him to really look
hard at the events of his past.

And that's one of the things that I
did love about that show was the fact

that they, they addressed that problem.

Yeah.

Even in Avengers, Loki is the
villain in front of the greater

villain he's working for fantasy.

We don't really know that.

But, I mean, it's, it's, it is still,
and this is sort of to Jude's point where

he's still not even the primary threat,
he's still a villain and he's still at

the villain in the public with the greater
villain lurking in the shadows behind him.

And that might be, I think, part of the
villain problem that we discuss in the

actual, you know, like thesis question.

Jude: Yeah.

Okay.

With that in mind, what do we say the same
thing of captain America first Avenger,

Trey: as far as being a villain
in front of a villain problem?

Jude: Well, it's interesting.

Cause, cause there's the
village in front of a villain.

If you think about it where you have
red skull, but because it's world war

two, because you have the Nazis, right.

And then you have red skull who is worse.

You, you kind of have a, to
villain dynamic, I guess, but the

larger threat is the one that's up

JB: front.

Yeah.

And then that red skull is someone
I wanted to talk about, uh, when we

get to misused billings or underused
villains, because I think, and it's,

it's exactly what you just said.

Jude: Well, let's put a pin on
that one because I I'm really

interested to hear that, that, that.

Trey: Yeah, just to respond.

Cause I I'm, I'm thinking a lot more
about your villain behind the villain.

And it really is.

I think a blueprint that the MCU held
onto because I mean, iron man, it was

the 10 rings that were the original
one, the threat that captured Tony.

And then we saw it was Obadiah
stain, who was the one that had

put the hit on it specifically.

So that has been from the
beginning, something that the, the

MCU has been, uh, playing with.

JB: Yeah.

And I would make the point that that is
a cinematic thing that comes more from

sort of action and intrigue and crime
movies than it does from comic books.

Because most of the time modern comic
books might like, sort of use it more

with the comics that I grew up in.

Pretty much the villain that was featured
was the primary for the villainous force.

You know, if Spider-Man was fighting
the shocker, the shocker was

the threat for that comic book.

Usually wasn't working
for any greater force.

And then that's, I mean, I think it's
a great, it's a cool and kind of like

more sophisticated way of framing.

Good versus evil and villainy.

Um, but you can also make the
argument that it was either

overused or stretched out too far.

And it became part of this villain
problem that we're talking about.

I mean, how many, how long
was it when they first teased

Thanos before we actually saw.

Right.

Like how many movies

Jude: was that when you say actually
saw Stanos do you mean infinity war?

And the only reason why I say that
is because he, he did show up in

guardians of the galaxy, but he
didn't do anything, but like say

to the chair, it would be menacing.

JB: So I'm talking about that,
the space between the, the end

credit sequence of Avengers, right.

And infinity

Jude: war.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, how long has that T's or, yeah,
so that's what, uh, and I have the list

up, so it May, 2012 to April, 2018.

JB: Wow.

That's a long time to tease your big, bad.

Jude: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

JB: It's stretched.

Yeah.

And I think that stretch is part of
the problem that we're addressing.

Trey: So just to understand a little
bit clearer, are you advocating?

It should have, there should have
been more appearances in the interim.

JB: I think that would have been
one way to handle it either,

either not showing him at all.

I mean, there are different sort
of like, you know, literary tricks

that they could have used that
could have talked about him.

You know, it's kind of like a,
um, I can't think of a really

good sort of classic literature.

Maybe you can help me out Jude,
but where the, where the, the,

the primary villainous for.

You know, spoken about the
person that the villain is afraid

of, you know, like that, that

Jude: sort of art, oh, the person
that the villain is afraid of.

Um, yeah.

Yeah.

You know what, there there's, that
was used, uh, and usual suspects

a little bit in that movie.

Um, you get that in.

JB: I was trying to think of
like heart, heart of darkness.

It's been so long since I read heart
of darkness, but like, you know, they

referenced Kurtz long before you meet him.

Yeah.

And he's, he's built up to be a threat
just by other characters, like talking

about them essentially before you ever
actually come face to face with Kirsty.

And it's a little bit in
apocalypse now, too, but yeah,

Jude: obviously.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know.

I know.

What's your true, like, um, I would
say Netflix Daredevil tried that with,

um, you know, we don't use his name.

You saw Wesley so much before
you actually got Fisk, uh, Harry

JB: Potter.

She thought that worked pretty well.

Jude: Harry Potter's Potter
cause you had the whole, he

must not be named and Voldemort.

Didn't really show up until book four,
maybe two with the Tom riddle thing.

It wasn't truly, you know, there
was still something behind it with,

Trey: uh, with Lord of the
rings fit into this as well.

I mean, sour on, I mean, it
doesn't make much of an appearance

aside from that opening sequence.

JB: Yeah.

I think that's pretty good

Trey: analogy too.

It's something that's only kind of
alluded to is like this menacing force

that never actually comes to fruition,

JB: especially if you don't consider the
eye of Sauron to be the, you know, the

physical revelation of, of sorrow, right?

Like, yeah, that's a great, and that's a
sort of a different kind of a trick that

works really well in Lord of the rings.

The ISR on itself has menacing and
when the, the it's a promise of an

evil to come and it's built really
well in the context of that trilogy,

when you finally, you know, it's, uh,
Harry Potter is a great example, too.

Those are both really good examples.

And I, you know, I think if, if one of
the problems that we're talking about,

you know, the billing problem, uh, as,
as I think that it's, that they just,

there was to, it was just stretched

Trey: for too long.

Yeah.

I've always found it interesting
when everybody talks about,

cause don't get me wrong.

I perfectly clear, I love Santos.

I think he's an excellent villain,
but one of the things people

cite is the lead up to them.

But I think you're perfectly right.

It's like, did we really have
that much of a lead up aside

from like three or four scenes

JB: then you can argue to that is.

The Mo his motivations changed because in
that first T's right, the lawn is like,

if you, if you combat humanity, you court
death, which is something like that.

And you see banister on smile, which
is based on his, his motivations

in the comics, which are probably a
little more difficult to, to describe

maybe even in a cinematic context,
but they worked in the comics because

death is actually personified.

There's like a cloaked skeleton figure
that Thanos is literally in love with.

And I actually really loved that as a
comics reader growing up that like, it

was Vanos as evil came from a love story.

He loved death so much that he was
willing to slaughter all to, to become

this genocidal force of destruction.

And I actually like, as much as I do,
like, uh, infinity saga fairness there,

a little bit of that as missing a little
bit of that complexity that came with

loving the concept of death is missing.

Jude: Well, you know what,
and okay, so I'm going to push

back on all that real quick.

Um, and in that, the whole concept of like
that looming threat that you don't know

or don't see, and like Marvel did that.

To, to us, you know what I mean?

Like, by, like you say, stretch out too
long, we should have seen more of it.

I I'm wondering, like, because of
the anticipation that they built up

in the fandom and the audience of
like, oh, what is it going to happen?

Is it here?

What are we going to see them next?

And when's the next stone and in creating
all of that, uh, over time, you know?

So, so it was almost like they
like to go back to Harry Potter.

Like they made us the fans of the
audience, like the kids at Hogwarts right.

Then had this fear of this and w that
it's missing and it's going to be this.

And when it happens, you know,
rather than for the characters.

And so I think that's all that might.

And so in doing that, that's what
helped build, um, such an, uh, an

excitement to finally get there.

JB: Yeah.

I mean, I, I definitely think it's
like, as a trick, I think it's great,

but I think it's, it's, you can argue
that it's, it's done better and like

Lord of the rings or Harry Potter, and
it's really, I may be overstating the

point, cause we're, I'm sort of, we're
specifically talking about fan FENOs,

but it is, it is the idea of the villain
behind the villain repeated over and over.

Where the primary Fred has got
someone more like we're talking

about iron man two and I'm in three
and a guardians where Ronan is, you

know, he's just working for fantas.

Jude: Yeah.

Well, and it's interesting though.

Cause, cause I w when you say, yeah,
we're just talking about banjos,

but at some point in the MCU, we
reach a point where all these little

individual movies, because of the
infinity stones, we know we're

building to that, you know what I mean?

Um, and so he, so I don't think
it's unfair to say that we're

just talking about fighting us.

Cause that's who it is like
that is the culmination.

JB: I mean, it certainly pays
off, you know what I mean?

Like you can, like, the weight pays
off, but it might've just been,

you know, there might've just like
there could have been maybe a little

bit more, a little bit better build
up or more, more, I don't know.

I mean, I haven't watched guardians
in awhile and I don't really remember.

How, I mean, I know Thanos has played
up a lot in guardians, just cause

you've got Gomorrah talking about him
and Ronan really beautifully played.

And you understand that Ronan
Ronan himself is, is, is like a

pretty big threat, serious billing.

And is, you know, as a menacing, as
Ronan is like, he's just working for

a guy who's even more ministering.

The guardians, I think is one of the
points where they do a good job of

reminding us that like banjos is coming.

Jude: Yeah.

Well, and you can sort
of, you, sorry, go ahead.

Finish your thought.

JB: Well, I was going to branch off
just a little bit, but you can sort

of, you can see that idea repeated
in Wanda vision with the stuff.

Right.

Cause we were all like, okay, who's the
real threat, you know, nobody was really

everybody, people were sort of looking at
Agatha, but I think a lot of people were

like, who's the threat behind Agatha.

We're impatient to get to what that bigger

Jude: threat was.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no.

And, and the only thing I was gonna say
about Ronan is he, in my mind, he is

the more traditional mustache twirly.

I didn't like find him that.

Complex.

It's just, Hey, I, I
don't like you people.

And so I'm going to get rid
of you, you, you know, um,

JB: and he was sort of, I would put
him in the underused category as well.

Yeah.

Especially considering the,
just, he has so much history

in the comics, in the comics.

He's his own separate threat from fantas.

He really like Ronan's coming as
a big enough problem to deal with.

Whereas in guardian too, he almost
feels like a fantasist Emissary.

And I think that that gets in the way of
the significance of the threat that he is.

And he's just not in the movie much.

Jude: Yeah.

Trey: Yeah.

I've never thought about that, but
that, I mean, most of the focus was

on the interpersonal relationships
of the guardians themselves.

Uh, but I've never once thought
about like, yeah, I guess he

doesn't really show up as that much.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, you know, to, to jump in here
and answer the question for myself, uh,

you know, I, when I honed in on this
question, I think I was looking for like,

okay, where did it get consistent that
whenever you'd go to see an MCU movie or

an MCU TV show that the villain wasn't
going to be up in the air about, um,

whether it was a complex character or
whether it was just, uh, an obstacle as

we kind of put the, the one dimensional
sides of the characters earlier.

Um, and I think I had to go
with captain America, civil.

Uh, with Zemo because I think he hits
two of those check boxes for me of

what I'm looking for in the archetype.

And that he's a villain, you understand,
because he lost everything in, in Sokovia

after the events of age of Ultron.

So you understand why he's doing
what he's doing, but I also think

he is also the manifestation of the
thing the protagonists are facing.

Uh, he is the physical manifestation of
the rift between the Avengers and the

fact that he gets to be that spike that
further drives them apart and wins in a

way, even though he's captured, I think
that was the start of the MCU really

diving into their complex villains.

Uh, cause you have Zemo uh, from
there you get ego vulture, Hela.

I mean the list goes on.

Like they, they really started
knocking them out of the park,

uh, after, uh, civil war.

JB: Yeah.

And he's another villain
behind the villain, right.

Because winter soldier is the ostensible
threat and that movie, but it's,

Zemo, who's pulling the strings.

And again also not in the movie much
compared to compared to bookie anyway.

Right,

Jude: right.

He's not.

Yeah.

Trey: And it's interesting
because he's leveraging the

image of Bucky for most of it.

Like, cause Bucky's just
trying to keep to himself.

And so it's not even like.

You know, Bucky's out
there causing terror.

It's not until he gets his command
words reiterated, but yeah.

Jude: Well, for me, civil war is one
of those where you have, well, like

you said, the multiple villains, the
villain behind the villain trick,

but even with, with those two it's
for me, the overarching villain in

civil war was inception conceptual.

What'd you say?

I heard that.

I

JB: heard that.

Uh, well we know what side Trey
is on doorway, the civil war.

Jude: Um, but no, like, but
it's more conceptual right.

There is that philosophical
battle between them too.

And so Zemo being, even pulling
the strings behind winter soldier.

All of that is, is a manipulation
to stage that, that philosophical

debate between both sides.

JB: Ms.

Book, when I'm talking about the
villain behind the villain Zima, I'm

talking about winter soldier, not
civil, although that does completely

carries over for sure that the scene
where they capture him basically.

And he talks about his family
dying that's in civil war.

Yeah.

Okay.

It's at the end of the civil war.

Jude: Right, right.

Zima.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I guess, I guess what I'm saying is
that Zemo and handmade may manipulating

winter soldier, you know, in behind
and doing all that manipulation is the,

the, well, like that, that distinction
between story and plot, right?

Like the story of civil war is about the,
that philosophical signing or not signing.

And which one is right.

I have

JB: written down on my notes
just to your point, the villain

of civil war, his secrets.

Jude: Oh, wow.

Oh nice.

JB: It's miscommunication.

It's almost a sit-com setup now.

Like sitcoms were always about
characters, you know, miscommunicating.

Like if you're, if I'm going to date
myself, but like a three's company was

always about like somebody half hearing
a conversation, having a completely

wrong conception of what happened.

And then that being the
conflict of the show.

And that's like a, sit-com
like comedy conflict trope.

That's been used like a bazillion
times and that's really.

The problem in civil war is I think
people not talking to each other.

Right.

And keeping secrets from each other.

Trey: Yeah.

I think you have given me a new lens
at which to appreciate civil war.

Like the, the villain is
secrets and miscommunication.

Wow.

That you just knocked me
on the floor with that one

JB: and further step away
from mustache twirling.

Right?

It's a, it's like you were saying,
it's a, it's a positive step forward

in complexity and a cinematic
rendition of these comic book icons.

Jude: Wait, so, so if that's the case,
Tony and trying to have the conversation

and why you signed the Accords and cap.

Being stubborn and not wanting to
have the conversation makes him the,

Trey: you got me.

Jude: I'm

JB: just here to start a fight.

Trey: Well, it's just funny that
you referenced Nick Sandy spike.

Cause he was here to mediate between us.

JB: Um, the auntie Nick I'm here just to
make you guys just to salt in the wounds,

Trey: we're going to need you to
get a, a, a version of a theme

song for us that we could use.

If it's just a fight heavy episode between

JB: I'm just going to record Sandy's
theme backwards is all and just put it.

Jude: Yeah.

I of what you said though, I am
going to go rewatch civil war now.

I'd like that, that framing.

Yeah.

I mean, I watched it,
so I'll be right back.

JB: I watched it before
one division came out.

So not super recently,
but not that long ago.

That was like last year.

Right?

So in some movies, like I hadn't watched
the vendors in probably two or three

years because I wanted to catch up
on the Wanda and Quicksilver stuff.

But that was when it struck me.

Like this movie is really it's the, the.

Think the problem in this movie
is secrets and miscommunication.

It's it's, it's a sitcom.

It's a sitcom plot.

Jude: God, that's crazy.

Okay.

I'm re I'm definitely rewatching it.

Trey: Yeah, it's a, it's a
perfect distillation of it.

JB: It's just like, just like Jude said,
it's, it's, it's getting further and

further away from mustache twirling, which
is the, one of the best things about the

MCU is just the, how much they really
are grounding these fantastical ideas.

Trey: Oh, I mean, they deserve everything
for the way that they adapted vulture,

the most comic booky character just
in design and to something that

feels missing with Michael Keaton
and homecoming, like it's, it's

Jude: wild.

Well, and this isn't necessarily
homecoming view, but, but just

the use of reaching back and
using the tech to make that.

So, cause it becomes a believable of the.

I don't even think they
called them vulture.

JB: I don't think they do.

No.

I don't think he's ever called
vulture and he's barely even referred

to by name tombs, I think is the
only thing that they refer to him.

I don't know if anybody calls him, Adrian.

Maybe, maybe his wife does like at one
point, but yeah, he's almost, he's almost

kept non-human and again, I'm, I'm,
I'm treading into a question we haven't

reached yet, but, uh, this is the yeah,

Trey: well, you know what?

I feel like we're getting to the end
of this, this section of the outline,

but I want to throw this wrench into
our conversation and see how much

more this spurs conversation here.

You know, when I, when I wrote the
question, when did Marvel fix its villain

problem, it was essentially what I was
telling you about the moving away from

the one note dimensional characters.

Um, but when I was doing some further
research right before we went, uh,

into this recording, something I
stumbled on was another interesting

perspective of the villain problem.

And that was Marvel's
tendency to kill off villains.

So starting with you, JB, how do you feel
about the villains that are excellent

in execution, but are unfortunately
done away with before the movie.

Well,

JB: red skull is the one
that comes to mind first.

Um, and it was that, that to me, I think
is probably at least in my own opinion.

And some of this is just tainted
by being a comic book reader.

Red's Cole is the, the, the most
underused villain in the entire MCU.

Cause he's just, he's such a
massive threat in the comics.

You know, it's, it's interesting
because like, yeah, he's a

Nazi, which is bad enough.

You don't really need to pile
on that, but he's like, like

Jude said, he's even worse.

Like he's, he will kill other Nazis
to get what he, what he wants.

I mean, he is, he is a garden
variety, sociopath bent on

destruction and domination.

Uh, and I would have really liked
to have seen a lot more red skull

even in, in, in an end game when we
meet him in the sacrificial planet.

Do you guys remember the name of that?

Uh, for me, thank you.

When we see him there, like I was
convinced we were gonna see him sneak

out with them in some way, like I was
waiting for him to find a back door

out of that place because I just, I
think that the red skull belongs in

the MCU with as prominent a place as
nanos, at least on the street level.

Anyway.

I mean, obviously it can't be.

Jude: I think, I think that
that's, that's completely fair.

What do you think about, you know, well,
I mean, and it could be wrong, but like,

when I think about captain America and
in the rogues gallery red school comes

to mind in the same way, you know, to
use this Batman and joker, you know?

Um, so yeah.

So in that sense, in terms of, like
you said, the most misunder underused

now, it's interesting that most of that
wouldn't be my, my pick, but like that's

a very strong case that I, you know, yeah.

It was somebody who was

JB: actually to argue against it,
reviewing a captain America figure and

was talking about the fact that cap
doesn't have much of a rose gallery.

Like Batman's kind of compared to cap.

He's kind of, he's got a huge
gallery, but cap even caps.

Other biggest threats are people
that worked for red skull Zemo

ultimately works for female.

Right.

It starts with red skull.

Um, what's the other, the scientist
with the, his face Zola, Zola, Zola.

Yeah.

Works for red SCO.

Like they end up becoming solo
threats of their own at different

points in, in cap's comic history.

But they start out just as people that
work for red skulls, he really is.

Yeah.

He's he is absolutely caps joker for sure.

Jude: Yeah.

Um, well, and crossbones,

JB: he also worked for,
he does work for instance,

Jude: I think so.

Yeah, I, yeah, I do.

I really think so.

JB: And maybe some of that is because
cap was such a integral part of

the Avengers, you know, that you
can, you can name off all, all of

the many, many Avengers villains
as being captain America villains.

And,

Jude: uh, as that instructor barren

JB: Strucker right.

Another one came out
of the red skull camp.

Yeah.

So, and I, I think probably historically
kept solo comics never sold as well as

the Avengers comics for various reasons.

So you can, I think make a very
compelling argument that caps villains

are all of the Avengers villains too.

But as far as his, his street level
solo comic book or solo project,

billons, it's pretty much red skull
and the, the, his sort of underlings.

Yeah.

And I would love to have seen that
expand out instead of him being,

you know, often, uh, first Avenger.

Trey: Yeah.

I remember being so excited, uh, in
infinity war with that revelation

of like, oh, the red skull is still
around, but it was just, again,

kind of that it's been so long.

That, I didn't know how much
they could utilize them more

than what they did in that.

And who knows

JB: the future is unwritten.

And now that we're talking about
multi-verse variants and all kinds of

other things and the potential of secret
wars, you know, which red school played

a big part of secret wars in the comics.

So I see.

Yeah.

The original.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And Dr.

Doom, which will, um, I assume
we'll see in the next couple of

years, I expect we see at least
some reference to, or hint about Dr.

Doom.

Jude: Yeah.

Yeah.

I would have like, and I know
tangents, I don't even know

JB: if I'm like, sorry,
if I let us attend it.

It's such a big subject.

Yeah.

So many places to go.

Jude: No, it is so many
places to go with it.

Cause like, um, you know, we know John
Watson is going to do fantastic four

and, and Kevin FYGI is not a big fan
of recycling, old villains, you know?

And what I mean by that is like, I'm
going to use homecoming and far from

home, we get vulture, you get Mysterio,
you get in homecoming, shocker tinkerer,

you know, but if you look at who was in.

You didn't get any body out of the Raimi
or, um, amazing Spider-Man universe, you

know, and, and either one of those two.

And so just looking at that, I don't
imagine like, and then projecting

into like fantastic four X-Men.

I don't expect to see Dr.

Doom and fantastic four.

Wow.

At least not at least not yet.

You know?

Cause, cause we've already
seen him done twice.

Right.

I think.

And

JB: yeah.

Have you guys heard of the Easter egg, the
moon night, Easter egg possible Easter?

Trey: No, I think I know
what you're talking about.

JB: So this is, I mean, I didn't, this
has been reported a few different places.

Like everything always talks
about a lot and I forget

Jude: what

JB: everything does.

Um, who else?

But I mean, it's, it's been reported on
all of the different speculation, um,

shows and things, but uh, apparently
when, when, um, Oscar Isaacs was

driving the truck, Isaac, sorry.

After Isaac is driving the truck in the
Moonlight trailer, there's a sign behind

them and it's something it's Vaughn the,
and then the rest of the thing is, is

obscured by like a box or something.

And the people are saying, well, why
would you put bond the anything anywhere

in the Marvel universe, if it's not
Von doom, if you're not referring to.

Jude: You know what I think that
was mentioned in our discord.

Somebody put that in there.

I'd have to scroll back
through and look is it?

And I think Sean, I'm sure

Trey: he was fashioned Jimmy and Sean had

Jude: response and Sean had
a response where Sean said

he was convinced it wasn't.

But, but, but his reasoning, why off
the top of my head, I don't remember.

I'd have to scroll back through
or people can join the discord

and go look for themselves.

Um, during the discord, just say

Trey: Lincoln, the shots.

JB: I mean, I, I think, I think
that's a strange way to introduce him.

And I think that to me is the
strongest argument against it.

But I do finally.

I mean, if it's just, you know,
if it's Billy van dam or something

like that, it's a little, yeah,
it's a little close, you know,

Jude: let's see.

Okay.

Let's, let's speculate just a little
bit on again, in the villains realm.

Um, in Loki, we had, he, who
must not be named canc, right.

We know he's coming back, right?

Um, well, not that one, I guess
a variant and ant man in the

wash quantum mania, fantastic.

Four comes after that and
Kane is part of the fantastic

four row gallery, so to speak.

So like, that's that like again, to say,
like, we know we have that, um, and again,

it's almost go back to your villain behind
the villain thing of like, are we really

going to see Kang, the conqueror and
Jonathan majors and the functionality of

Loki man and quantum mania and that's it.

Right.

I find that hard to believe.

Um, and so that's why it's like, oh, well
I'm not convinced it's due in the first

fantastic four, because again, Kevin
foggy not wanting to do immediately.

What those two did

Trey: I want to, I want to see, this is
something I was going to clarify earlier.

I just, because we exist in this
multi-verse universe of the MCU.

When you say there weren't Ramy
villains in homecoming and far

from home, you're talking about new
adaptations of those characters, right?

Jude: Well, I'm just
saying they weren't used

JB: yeah, there it's almost like a,
well, we got sort of like a wink, right?

I mean, there's a, there's
a water monster, right?

There's a sand monster.

Like, I mean, in the trailers,
people were like, oh, it's sand man.

Oh, it's hydro man.

But that's not what they were.

Jude: Right.

Oh, I can far from home.

Yeah.

Trey: Right.

Jude: Yeah.

But, but even the hydro man wasn't in,
he was not used, but in the others.

Yeah.

JB: But Sandman would have been.

Yeah.

I mean, like, I, I see your point
and obviously there's, I don't think

there is any evidence that foggy is.

Is anxious to use characters that
existed in previous cannons, I

guess, although that's a different
discussion at this point.

Jude: Right.

JB: I agree though.

I mean, it hasn't been that long since the
last doc, uh, fantastic four movie and,

uh, they, that movie didn't make full use
of doom or any of the other characters.

Really?

I don't hate that movie.

I just think it's like, it's mostly first
act, you know, like it's a whole lot of

time spent developing the characters and
then it's a little squashed action movie

in like the last 30 minutes or something.

It's, it's just, it's really
out of balance, but I don't

Trey: first act and we're done.

Yeah.

JB: Oh right.

We were a superhero movie.

We have to have a bit, you know, like
it just, it didn't, uh, and maybe they

were maybe the, when they had that
structure, they had a three a trilogy in

mind when they were doing it like that.

I don't know, but that I, I would like
them that, that logic makes a lot of sense

to me that we won't see doom anytime soon,

but I'll be excited when we do
cause he's a cool character.

And he does like red school.

He deserves an MCU represent, you
know, like a BMC your treatment.

Trey: Yeah, it's one of my most
anticipated villains of, of the

little comic book knowledge I have.

I'm super excited for
an MCU version of Dr.

Doom.

JB: I mean, if you do, I mean,
let's just say for argument's sake

that you do introduce him via this
supernatural, moral world that we're

building, starting with him tonight.

And like you referenced in the last pod,
the closing scene of maternal's with,

with black light and blades voice, one
of the versions of doing, we have not

seen yet as the magic user do, right.

The, he was, you know, he was as
brilliant a scientist as Reed Richards,

you can argue, but he studied magic
as, as intensely as he studied, you

know, science, physics and stuff.

So if we are going to get a doom,
maybe it'll be that version, you know?

Yeah.

I also, we haven't, we haven't seen
world leader doom either, which

is an interesting take as well.

He runs a bronze, a country.

That's a, that's a very cool
villain, especially in the

ultra realistic, you know, uh,

Trey: Yeah.

JB: So tangent after tangent.

Jude: I know it's all right.

So

JB: we're talking about villains, right?

We're somewhat on that.

Absolutely.

Trey: So I, I want to swing over
to you jeered and get your answer.

Do you think it's a problem for
the MCU or in terms of killing

off villains in their movies?

Jude: Hmm, that's interesting.

Well, again, I love the conversation
we're having, uh, cause I is because

it recontextualizes a lot of things
in my answers because part of me

is like, initially he's like, okay,
yes, because you have this like

sophistication of storytelling
where, well, let's put it this way.

There's this sophistication
of storytelling where the

villain doesn't have to die.

You know?

It's like, we can, well, I'm
gonna take black Panther.

Right?

There's a, there's a moment where
with Wakanda and technology, we

know Killmonger could have lived.

Right.

Like I think there's a reasonable thought
and, and, and you have that fight.

But you should think the mustache
twirly type, the villain where

it's iron man, iron monger.

I am essentially fighting
my shadow self then.

Yeah.

For the character to move on and grow
and overcome killing that villain

is squashing that shadow self.

And he, the villain must necessarily die.

You know what I mean?

Um, well, I mean, that's, there's a
little bit too far to turn to the Jetta,

but, um, you know, cause Darth Vader
dies, but it wasn't because of Luke.

Um, so it doesn't necessarily mean
that the, the protagonist, the

hero has to do the killing, but to
overcome it, the villain has to die.

So let's put it that way.

Whereas, you know, like who's the villain
and Ant-Man and wasp and ghost, you know,

you didn't have to die, she didn't have
to die and have a resolve to that story.

So, so part of me says

yes, because that's, it'd be cool to
see our monger again and be able to

bring them back or, you know, and,
and, but like that's just service

to that movie in the story and how
it needed to end and say, yeah, we

shouldn't be killing this many villains.

And so in some ways, yeah, that's a
problem, but in some ways, no, because

narratively, it does and can make sense.

Um, which I, so I hate to give like
that ambiguous answer, but I think it's

it's, but it comes down to what are
the stories you're telling and how,

what does that use of villain and is
the desire for the villain to continue?

Because it's like Jamie mentioned with
first Avenger of like, whoa, red skull

was too big to get rid of all the already,
or like, if it's serving the story,

then, then you kind of gotta do it.

You know what I mean?

And so that's, that's why I was like, I'm
not trying to sidestep it, but as much as.

Like w w what's what's the purpose?

What's the story being told.

Trey: Yeah.

I w again, 100% framed it as throwing
a monkey wrench into this because

I was taking my notes, felt sure
fired about what I wanted to say.

And then some last minute Googling,
right before we recorded, I

stumbled across that article.

And I was like, oh, crap.

Like, this just feels like another wrench
into the quote unquote problem of the MCU.

And to go even further.

One of my favorite MCU movies was the
catalyst for why they wrote the article.

Uh, they claim killing Wynwood
was the, uh, uh, another

manifestation of that problem.

The MCU is having.

And I'm kind of in that space with Eugene,
where I personally felt like that was, you

know, part of the story that was what was
needed for the story they were telling.

But I can also see their point
of like, if you don't give

these villains room to grow.

And in this case with Tony, Leon
giving such an incredible form, it

says when, whew, you just kind of
miss out on seeing them grow as much

as we see the heroes grow in the MCU.

But the line that you have to tread is how
do we do this in a way that makes sense?

And not just like, oh, well,
this villain broke out of the

raft again, kind of thing.

Like it actually, there has to be some
sort of developmental plan for them,

for them to continue past their movie.

And I don't know how much foresight
is given to that map as much

as it's given to the heroes.

Yeah, all, I actually have

JB: some fun.

I actually have a Killmonger listed as
an unsympathetic villain because 100%

can, you can, um, relate to his point.

It's a, it's a very strong point, but
he doesn't turn until he's about to die.

And in that case, if he doesn't die,
he just keeps trying to kill to Charlo.

He just keeps trying to
become king of Wakanda.

He didn't get a kind of
a crisis of conscience.

He's he's just realized
he's he's, he's done.

He can't find anymore.

And then you, you get, uh,
you know, some indication of a

turn or a conscience with Eric.

I love that character.

He's like whenever a second
favorite character of bill, but I

think you just, if he doesn't die,
he just keeps coming into jello.

Jude: Yeah.

Yeah.

JB: He has to die and
it's, it's unfortunate.

And you can probably make
that argument with red skull.

Trey: Well, I think that's wrapping up
this center section of the outline, and

I'm very curious to put into practice.

Some of the things we were talking
by these last few questions.

Uh, so starting with me this time for
zoning in, on some of the villains who

had the most wasted potential in the MCU.

And man, I keep going back and forth
on who I want to ultimately go with.

Uh, I really think I'm going to go with
Justin hammer as far as a villain, uh,

that felt like they were really wasted.

Uh, again, not to re litigate everything
we talked about in our Ironman to review.

Um, but this doing a way with Justin
hammer by not really being too

much of a focus in iron man to not
seeing them again until the one-shot

where it was more, just a joke.

Um, yeah, it felt like there
was so much more to mine.

There is having this character who was.

Essentially Tony stark, but without
any of the lessons learned, I thought

it would have been nice to have that
as a running presence, uh, in the MCU,

which I know there's room for their
potential to, to appear in armor wars.

But as of right now, that's the character,
I think, feels like the most wasted one.

Not,

JB: not to, not to forget portrayed
by a brilliant actor as well.

You're almost talking about part of
that is like wasting the actor, right?

Like so good.

I would have loved to have seen

Jude: him a lot more.

Trey: Sam Rockwell is the reason
people want Justin hammer back

because there is nothing narratively
that makes people want doesn't here.

JB: I mean, yeah, I agree.

Trey: I'm sorry I cut you off, dude.

What were you gonna say?

Jude: I think that's a good choice.

Like the ed good, reasonable to Rockwell.

Like he is kind of thing.

I don't think I've seen anything
with him in it that I do.

Enjoy him in particular,
you know, um, fantastic.

JB: Um, restraining myself from like
suggesting 15 Sam Rockwell poopies.

Cause yeah.

He's, he's just the best man.

He's he's one of the, one
of the top of in his age

Jude: range, for sure.

Yeah.

Trey: Oh yeah.

It takes a special level of charisma
to play failed charisma because

like, he is like, he takes, he's
doing what Tony stark is doing, but

just has enough of a tweak on it to
just make it not work and load him.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, uh, what about you JV?

Which, uh, which villain would you
pin as the most wasted potential?

JB: Thankfully, I already talked
about this so we can shave off a

little bit of time here, red skull.

You're a hundred percent.

Right.

And I don't like, I guess,
um, what's his name?

Hugh is the actors.

Agent Smith.

Oh, you go

Trey: weaving.

Thank you.

Or Ross Markwan depending
on when you, uh, right.

JB: Um, Hugo weaving, I guess there
was maybe he didn't want to come back.

I feel like I remember hearing
something about that and I wonder

if, if that didn't contribute to
him dying in that movie, but, uh,

even if it had been another actor.

Yeah, I would have, there's just so
much in the comics, uh, around the red

skull, particularly as a living, uh,
antithesis of cap, you know, he, he

is he's capped mirror reverse in like
every way in which this juicy stuff.

So I, you know, I'm, I'm with Jude and
thinking that there's and foggy is right

in the sense that there's so many other
billings that we, you know what I mean,

we barely scratched the surface of Kang
and there's so much to do with Kang.

And so we don't need to pull red
skull out of the ether right.

This year or anything.

But I do hold out, hope that somewhere
down the line, he comes back in some form.

Jude: Yeah.

Trey: I think that's a great pick.

Yeah, him coming back and infinity war
is the excitement that I felt, uh, in

that moment is, is I think credit to
what you were saying of, of that waste

of potential to have that significant
of an impact all these years later.

JB: Well, how great would it be
if he came back as a rival to Sam,

to Sam, Sam as captain America?

Because he's almost like, I mean, Sam
already is slightly out of his depth.

He's entirely capable superhero,
but he stepped into big shoes

and if you're facing, oh yeah.

You know, the red skull, your first
year as captain America, like that's,

you know, that's, uh, fighting from
underneath, as they say in wrestling,

like you're, you're, you're way
over-matched powered, but it makes

for a fascinating about, yeah.

Jude: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Trey: So what about you, Jude?

Which, uh, which villain had the most
wasted potential in your opinion?

Jude: Red skull is a good pick.

And it's interesting.

We talked about the, the
evolvement of the MCU and villains.

I feel like you can make an argument
for almost any of the phase one films,

you know, uh, Avengers aside cause
a low-key right, but just the, the

solo films, uh, you can make a good
argument for almost any of those.

We've mentioned Ronan.

Hmm, I'm going to say Ultron.

Ooh.

And in the reason why is, eh, you
know, there's a little bit of comic

thing of like what he is in the comic.

Um, but he is, uh, I feel like red
skull, uh, w w what Jamie was saying

about red skull ultra, and, you
know, is a, that level of threat.

He is not, I mean, clearly when
we're saying, uh, cosmic, it's not

necessarily, we're talking about scale.

Like he is the cosmic scale.

He's not street level, you know?

Um, and so to, to, uh, is
he a group movie worthy?

Yes.

Um, but he could have given him a Thanos
treatment in a, in a two-parter, you know,

um, but because of what you can do with
him and the I, and the idea of using the

internet to, to move around, um, using
the, the vibranium, you know, and just

being that outmatched, um, And so, yeah,
so like I I'm going to go with that one.

JB: He was my second ultra and I
almost said instead of red skull for

all of the reasons, age of Ultron
and the comics is brutal stuff.

It's really scary, big, huge cosmic stuff.

Jude: Oh yeah.

Well, like even I'm
thinking just the cartoon.

Well, yeah.

What if, but even before that,
like I love the Avengers or

somebody as hero, run that run.

Gotcha.

Because it's, it follows the
comic very closely and, and what

they are able to show of ultra.

And it just, that is like, he is,
I feel like a far bigger threat

than what the movie showed.

JB: Yeah.

And that was one of the great
things about what if is it we got a

little bit more Ultron and a look at
exactly what you're talking about.

Like a look at just how big
a threat he could have been.

Trey: Yeah.

I think the common joke leading up to.

That expansion of his character.

And what if was that?

The age of old Toronto was only like
a few days in the MCU and it didn't

really quite live up to the title of the
character, but even like for everything

you both have said about what makes
Ultron an amazing villain and a potential

for the wasted character, I mean, James
Spader, his voice alone, like what

he created for that character to only
appear once and the MCU even counting.

What if, cause they got a different voice
actor, man, you could do so much more than

Jude: what they do.

Yeah.

Well, and I think about the trailer where
the, and I know it's Disney and like okay.

The Pinocchio thing, but, but really
clever use of, I have no stream.

That's exactly what,

JB: right before you spoke out,
almost saying the little, like,

there are no strings on me.

Jude: Yeah.

Like, like just that, how menacing
that trailer made it feel.

And then it just, uh,
now don't get me wrong.

I, I think I like age of
Ultron better than most.

Um, but it's yeah, like, yeah,
Ultron was, was kind of misused

kind of wasted a little bit.

Well, oh, hold on.

I'm going to honorable
mention one, uh, hella.

And the only reason why I say that
is, uh, Yeah, cause you've got great

branch yet, you know, like to see
more of that would have been great.

JB: She's one of my top five favorites.

Trey: Well, Jamie, I want
to give you a chance.

Do you have any honorable mentions or
so we move on for underused underused?

Yeah.

No, not

JB: really.

I thought mostly about red skull and
ultra and the stuff that I didn't

say Jude said about old trunks.

So other than that, I mean, I, there
are probably characters that could

make an argument for, I have a, I
have an honorable mention as far

as a favorite Goldman's oh, cool.

But not underused.

Trey: Okay.

Well, you know what, I'm
an authority you next.

So let's go ahead and jump into
who is your favorite MCU villain?

JB: So going back to the beginning of
the podcast, when I stared to say, I

disagree with you, uh, Adrian tombs,
the vulture is my favorite villain

in the MCU and it was, it was close.

I like fan hosts a lot and
I like Killmonger a lot.

That's probably my top four, I guess.

But like I said, I like
personally, I like acknowledging.

I think there's, you know, like I, you
know, more relevant, moral relativism

is like important and to not see things
as binary is important, no scientist

ever got, you know, discovered anything
great by thinking in black and white.

But I think there are
sociopathic people in the world.

People that you can, you
can pinpoint as evil.

And I think Adrian Toomes is an evil dude.

And I don't, I don't buy as justifications
like his, he, you know, he talks

about his family a couple of times.

Right.

And, but he talks about his work more.

And when he says his
work, he means his money.

That's really what agent
Mo motivates Adrian.

And we get, and I think like the
most telling scene is the very

first scene when he punches that
guy, which is overreaction son.

I understand how angry you are about,
you know, having the government take this

contract, you know, take your job away.

You are justified in being angry, but to
punch the dude right then, and there shows

you have some problems that existed before
this problem further on in the film.

No, where he makes that he says a
couple of times about, you know, mess

with my family, blah, blah, blah.

I don't know.

I don't, I don't believe
that's his real motivation.

I think his real motivation
is power and wealth.

He loves that big house, these
goggles, and he loves the

power that the suit gives him.

And when he turns around in that car
to Peter to 15 year old prom attending

Peter Parker, Babyface Peter Parker,
and says, you know, if you interfere

in my business again, I will kill you.

I'll kill you dead.

Jude: I will kill you.

Trey: I will kill you dead line.

Only Michael Keaton could deliver

JB: and see I was going to get to this,
but like we briefly discussed it when

I, when I co-hosted that Jude and I
are on the same page when it comes to

Michael Keaton and that he is a complete
and total bad-ass, he's just brilliant.

Everything he does.

He's my Batman story.

Like, let's

Jude: get nuts.

I'm with you.

He's my Batman.

JB: I love that.

Right.

That to me is that he

Jude: is pleased.

He's Batman, he's restrained.

He's perfect

JB: in both roles, which I think
you've heard people argue, you know,

Christian bale was a good Bruce
Wayne, not a good Batman, vice versa.

And I've, I've heard people.

And I think there's, there's like,
uh, there's something to that.

Um, and I think Michael Keaton
inhabited Bruce Wayne and bat.

Perfectly because Bruce Wayne would
have to be a little bit nuts to

dress up like a bat, go kill people.

Um,

Jude: I I'm 100% on board with,

JB: so when he turns around and threatens
Peter to me, that is maybe, I mean, that

is more menacing than anything fanners did
as much devastation as standards caused.

There was always like
a softness to thinness.

You could see, you could sympathize with
Dennis, which is a weird thing to say.

I could, I could understand
that it was his, um,

justification's better than I can.

Adrian Toomes is when he turns around to a
15 year old boy says I will kill you dead.

No, that's menacing as hell.

Like that is, that is
pure evil in that moment.

That's why he's.

Trey: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, the, the, one of the examples
that, that you were going to reach

for, and just to, to bolster your
point more when he kills that guy, but,

and he, even to like, oh, I thought,
I thought it was the anti-graft gun

or whatever, even if that was his
reason, he was totally cool with it.

He didn't blink enough.

JB: Yeah.

Again, like I don't, and I, I believe
that he, he meant that when he said

that like, oh, I thought it was
the other gun, but you're right.

He's completely unbothered by the
fact that he just disintegrated the

dude completely unbothered by it.

And that that's sociopathy like that he's,
he's got a deep, deep mental illness.

I mean, you know, from a sympathetic
standpoint, like, and that,

Trey: sorry, again, I was just going to
say, it makes you wonder if, uh, that

was the first person he killed or if
that was just the first onscreen kill.

JB: Right.

Who knows?

You know, I mean, he, he was,
he was a guy looking for a

fight for the fight ever began.

That's what makes him scary.

Trey: Yeah.

That's an excellent thing.

JB: And so as far as my
honorable mention, Sony

Jude: Birch.

Ooh.

Okay.

And

JB: Batman played by the
brilliant Walton Goggins.

One of my favorite actors,
my favorite character actors.

And I love Sony Birch because
we didn't, we don't see.

Archetype often in the
Marvel universe, he is a 100%

opportunistic scuzzy businessman.

He's there for the money
and only the money.

And if he kills people fine, but
it's like, it's not, I don't think

he gets joy out of inflicting
violence the way tombs does.

It's just whatever he's
got to do to get rich.

And, you know, it's, it's the
performance of Walton Goggins.

And the fact that I don't think we really
see that kind of Dillon very often in the

Marvel universe, you know, and the fact
that he's played somewhat comedically

is like, he's a standout for me.

I kept thinking about him when
I was thinking about that.

Jude: You're right.

That is a really, really
good description of it.

Trey: And I got to say, whenever
this episode was pitched, did

not expect Sonny Burch to be
brought up into the conversation.

And I'm glad you found a way.

And I mean, you've given good reasons why.

JB: Yeah.

He's a bit of a curve ball, but yeah,
I, it was, uh, I was, I didn't rewatch

that film, but I was like looking at the
wikis of all the films and the villains.

And when I saw his name, I was like, you
know what, I love Sonny Burch and here's

let me figure out why he's still around.

Right.

I mean, you might be in prison, but
like there's conceivable we could

Jude: see sunny again.

Yes, he is definitely.

Oh, absolutely.

Trey: They have definitely left some
breadcrumbs, not only for the fate

of where he ends up, but as far as
like what he was doing, because he

was very mysterious who his quote
unquote buyer was that he was brokering

between the Pimm's and the buyer.

So they're doing something
with them, for sure.

JB: I see him in the context of
like, just even if we see him in

like a Disney plus street-level deal.

If we see him, you know, making
deals with kingpin or something

like I'll go on the record.

I would just love to see
Walton Goggins again,

Trey: we're on the record now.

I would not be surprised if
he shows up in armored wars.

Well, dude, what about you?

What's your favorite MCU villain.

And if you want to throw in a
honorable mention as well, you can,

Jude: um, Malika,

sorry.

I be a hundred percent honest.

I've seen that movie twice
and I do not remember the.

Um, anyways, I

JB: almost rewatched it
and then I thought, well,

Jude: um,

JB: I'm sorry.

Jude: Sorry.

No, Brian, I didn't do that out.

That's the other thing Alan Taylor
did that is if you look, Alan Taylor

has done some good stuff, right?

He did.

Yeah.

Anyway, if you look it up,
he did some really good stuff

like in, um, uh, oh my gosh.

Um, I can't, I'm like game of Thrones.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

And like game of Thrones eyes, uh,
you know, the Sopranos, like, uh,

like six feet under Ted woods, like he
has actually, um, he, he directed the

pilot episode of Madmen, like, wow.

Yeah.

And if you look at what the, his game
of Thrones, I have it up, actually,

it's the episodes, Baylor, the fire and
blood, the north remembers the night

lands, like season one, season two stuff.

Uh, Volare more I'm saying that episode.

Yeah.

Fantastic.

I mean, like I remember when they
announced it, how excited I was like,

oh my gosh, this is going to be.

And then we got what we got.

So, no, in all seriousness, I really
love what you said about vulture

and I've, and I've bounced back and
forth between vulture and Killmonger.

Um, Killmonger is my second
and well, it's interesting.

Cause like I am not, I'm
not a fan of breaking bad.

Um, and I'm, I'm going, there's
a reason I'm bringing this up.

This isn't a tangent, but, and because
my thought on Walter White is exactly how

you were describing tombs of just like
he was a sociopath from the beginning.

And then I just, I didn't get,
or enjoy watching the sociopath,

just be a sociopath, you know?

Um, you don't do that
without being a sociopath.

It, the idea that he became wine
was just lack of a better term dumb.

Um,

JB: I've never heard anybody
make that argument before,

but that's not easily argued.

Like that's a, I, I think
that's a super strong point.

Jude: Um, so, so I, I just, it, so
hearing all that and it does make

me rethink tombs, um, because.

Yeah.

I, I kind of, I thought it was
like, yeah, I get, I get here's your

motivation and stuff, but you're right.

That wasn't overreaction.

Hmm.

I go back.

So that's really good.

Yeah, you did.

Cause cause like I keep going
back and forth between the two

and like, and like, and I like it.

I was going to kill, kill,

JB: kill monger.

Yeah.

I, I liked Eric.

Like I, you know, aside from all the
horrible things he did, I would hang out

with Eric kill Parker and be friends.

Cause there's just there's so he,
his rationalizations are strong.

I don't think tombs is, are, I
think tunes are, like you say,

he's ultimately a sociopath he's
ultimately motivated by power lost.

Jude: So I'm, I'm going to say this
I'm I'm going to go ahead and stick

with Killmonger as, as much as I
love what you said about tombs.

And I am going to say you're right,
I'm going to stick with Killmonger.

Um, just because not only
would I think is my favorite.

I think it's and I like tombs a lot.

I feel like that's the one most people
point to of this is while I don't think

that this is where it fixed, so to speak.

Cause I sided homecoming.

I feel like the one that's the one most
people point to as fixing the villain.

One of my influences on this as I,
the YouTube channel, just right.

That I like, and he does a video on
this end, he talks about how in black

pants are, they're able to show both
the protagonist and antagonist grow by

the year, end in and change each other.

Um, and I think that's what makes him,
and I agree with that video essay.

And, and so the idea that, that they both,
by the year end have character growth

JB: and we call it dialectic, right?

Yeah.

Two opposite things, change
each other, like that's.

Yeah, that's

Jude: beautiful.

Um, and, and so that's, that's so as
much as I loved everything you said

about terms that I'd have to stick
with Killmonger, because of that,

I'm going to say, after all of this
conversation, what's going to sneak in

as my honorable mention general Rosch

and Hey, I've rewatched it
recently with my oldest.

Um, as we're slowly going through
the MCU at a very like turtle pace.

But as I think about that, and we
talked about who the villain is and

conceptually and all that stuff, like.

If it wasn't banner in a way, and
Hulk is a villain in that he is

a true threat to society as Hulk.

Does that make sense?

Like Jacqueline, especially, right.

And especially at that point,
like until the in, so to speak.

And even not that you could maybe
argue until Avengers, he doesn't really

have this under control, you know?

And then how far do you want
to push it to smart hole?

Right.

And so Ross and his motivation of like
in a position of wanting to be in a

job where you're protecting society
from this threat, but also have your

ulterior motives of what you want to
do, because your own search for power

and, and what you think you should do.

Like, I can see him in that, that
total war mentality, we're going to do

whatever we need to do to win a war.

And so that's why I want this and
military property, you know, kinda

kind of justification in and, and in
a weird way from like a public PR.

Point of view.

It's like, yeah, you go get
'em stop the whole, cause he's

going to tear down our city.

Um, but we as viewers don't
think of it that way, you know?

And, and so th so there's like a
little clever twist to me and him

being bad, but in quote unquote, normal
circumstances, wouldn't be, um, so

yeah, so that's, so thinking about
that whole conversation, I'm going to

go with that for an honorable mention.

Paul

JB: he's a little bit Colonel Kurtz,
isn't he like he's, you know, the reasons

he's pushed as far as he is, because
he's sort of seeing the worst of man.

Right.

And he's just become almost
the thing that he hates.

He was just willing to go to any extreme,
to, to enact what he considers justice.

But yeah,

Trey: that's great.

Yeah.

I

JB: like that a lot.

I honestly like didn't even, I didn't
even think about the hope movies guys.

Neither

Trey: does the MCU.

Unfortunately,

that's changing though.

That is definitely changing.

Well, I think it's come back to me.

Uh, as far as my favorite
villain goes, uh it's.

Wow.

Okay.

Now we know what side you're on as well.

Uh, you know, I have Killmonger
and vulture, uh, at three and

two respectively, but number
one, probably no surprise.

I'm going with windmill.

Um, that movie is still had
such a huge impact on me.

And I've said it, I think every time
I've talked about this movie is that

that movie works because of win-win.

I think it is a shining example of trying
to understand your villain and doing

so much legwork to make him work and
bring out the best in Shang T as well.

And I mean, it's so much of it's laid on
the performance of Tony Lee young as well.

Uh, so whenever I think about the MCU,
I think he is the benchmark for me in

terms of villain because he's formidable.

Uh, he has probably one
of the coolest powers.

I think seed I've seen depicted in
the MCU with the rings and the way

he was able to be such a blunt force.

Um, and I'll add on the, the flip
side, I don't think I'll ever shake the

image of him in my head whenever Shung.

She is trying to plead with them.

Like I wish mom was behind
that door, but she's not.

And he's just like silently shaking
that head because he can't, he

can't accept that truth like that.

That is so often the downfall
of the villains as the

inability to see the truth.

And Sarah, that right there, I think
is what solidifies him as one of

my favorite villains in the MCU.

Jude: Well, I'm glad you went
to one of the newer things.

Um, cause, cause I, Hey, there was a
struggle for me thinking about the newer

things and like what if is, is kind
of complicated because of the way it

was made and what villain do you pick?

Did it have an overarching Villa
and what kind of did kind of

didn't you know, we get into that
Wanda's overarching villain was.

Dealing with grief, you know, like, like
you just didn't have overarching villains

in the, in the traditional sense yet.

Uh, in the, in the Disney plus
shows, uh, I didn't even argue

in the black, in black widow.

Cause I thought about black widow and
it's like, yeah, you have Drake off, but

he's really just this personification
of like misogyny and patriarchy.

Um, and you know, rather than, so
it's still conceptual to me instead

of like you yourself as a villain.

Um,

JB: yeah, just task is
immediate threat, right?

Jude: Yeah.

Right.

Um, well, well, and again, it
plays in that themes of the,

I know people didn't like it.

I loved it.

It made sense that taskmaster
was female, his daughter.

Oh yeah.

You know, cause again, if he's,
if, if he's the personification of

this misogyny and patriarchy and
like that's who casts masher must

be, um, it makes narrative sense.

It was, it was wonderful.

Well, like I said, I, that was
my favorite of the 20, 21 movies.

So I, I am glad you went that way.

Cause even turtles like ha it
didn't the overarching villain.

Wasn't.

Uh, thing or a person so to speak,

JB: that's considered that with Dr.

Strange as well, because.

Villain in that buddies,
he's a big floating head.

You only see for the last 15
minutes of the movie, I'll go

Trey: ahead and jump in here because,
uh, my honorable mention comes from Dr.

Strange, and there is a part of me that
wanted to say Dormamuu, but what, what

makes him special is not necessarily
the bill in itself, but the creativity

at which the problem is solved and
what that brings out of strange.

Um, so my honorable mentions actually uh,
cause I talked about how an archetype

of the villain that I like is being the
failed version of the protagonist tasks.

I mean, Cassius is no different in
strange, in that the only fault he had was

he fell to the allure of the dark magic.

And Dormamuu like Dr.

Strange was pushing in those
same boundaries as well.

And we found out the, uh, the
ancient one was doing the same

thing to prolong her life.

So, Cassius, I don't know if he gets
the work done in the movie to make

him on the same caliber as the other
villains we've talked about, but

there was a nugget of something there.

And so that's why for me,
he's an honorable mention.

JB: Yeah.

Another, um, another character where the
actor is such an important facet of it.

Like Mads Mikkelsen is just awesome.

And he carries a lot of what is, I
think arguably a pretty thin character

up until like you get later on in the

Jude: film.

Yeah.

Well, and I was going to say.

There's that, that he could have been in
the conversation of the wasted villain.

Um, and I don't, I don't
know a couple of things.

I don't know if Dormamuu fits the
villain behind the villain, because

I don't think at least the way I
remember the movie Dormamuu wasn't

himself using Cassius to get here.

It was kind of Sealy is using
Dormamuu that's a good point.

Right.

And then, so to get, you know, to get
past Basileus, um, having to go to a

source and outsmart you, but like, if
you watch some of the deleted scenes,

there's some scenes that I don't know if
it was the length of time or what, why

didn't it get out of there that I think
would have, it wasn't a lot, but, but it

would have filled out and I don't think
he would have felt as thin, um, when

you watch the deleted scenes and you're
just like, oh, why did they cut this?

Like, this helps him so much.

Um, so, and again, it wasn't
a lot, but it was just enough.

JB: Yeah.

And I don't, I wouldn't even
say like, I mean, I think he's,

he, he was great in that film.

He's a great villain in that film because
miasmic Wilson is such a great actor.

Like he makes up for some of the fineness
of the character, which is just in the

script, but like, he's a, he's a holy.

I mean he's good enough.

You know what I mean?

He's I didn't need a Dormamuu until
I knew that thermometer was coming.

Like he was billing enough
for when I was watching

Trey: that.

Yeah.

And now I'm just gushing, but like when
he screams liar at the ancient one at

the beginning, it becomes so much more
rewarding on multiple rewatch is knowing

his story in the way that it plays out

JB: to add to Trey's point about
when Mo he he's one of the most

sympathetic villains in, in the camp.

I mean, his motivations are
some of the purest motivations

for, for doing bad stuff.

Uh, you're, he's, he's a, he's
a truly tragic and I mean, maybe

the most tragic film, I think you
can make a pretty strong argument.

That then is a tragic Dylan, but,

Jude: uh, we, I'm going to go over that
limb with you and say you can, but I'm

going to agree with you on win-win.

Yeah.

And just because they give you his rise
to power, his love that makes them set

power aside and the loss of power and
the grief of, or not the loss of power,

but the loss of his love and grief.

And that makes him pick the power back up.

And direct that grief
towards his own kids.

Right.

Um, and then to see him in the
end, another one of those, the

villain and protagonists learned
something from each other, you know?

Uh, so yeah, so your hundred
six, not to even mention

JB: the father, son.

Yeah.

Which is super rich.

And if we had more time, we talk more
about ego because even in guardians

too, um, there's a lot there.

The father and son there's there's so,
so much step to that kind of thing.

But I would say just for various
reasons, one of them being, it,

wasn't a, uh, an ensemble cast really.

Um, you got, you really got
to feel more of that and, uh,

Jude: yeah.

JB: Especially in the end that in
sequences, the dialectic there is

Jude: beautiful nominal,

JB: phenomenal.

Trey: So yeah, I think that's
going to wrap up our favorite

villains in the MCU, which has been
fantastic to get this sample size.

But we're gonna extend further.

We did put out on social media
asking for all of you, the

listeners favorite villain.

So we're going to read through some
of those here, starting on Twitter.

We got this one from Nick,
Sandy, which reads Darren cross.

Uh, I think the thing I replied to him
on the social media is like that suit

alone is just worth a mention because
even if it is falling into the, the kind

of not developed villain area, that suit
carried them in that movie, in my opinion,

JB: heck yeah, I love
to get yellow jacket.

And uh, in fact, he could have gone
into the underused category as well.

Like he's that was, uh, he might've
been a little underdeveloped.

I agree.

But he just, in terms of like the
power and the suit and the standoff

at the end is that's good stuff.

Jude: Mr.

Melt on Twitter said Zemo and it's
funny because we talked about Timo

is kind of being the background
and stuff, but it's the MCU and we

have Falcon in the winter soldier.

And when you put all of
that together, uh, yeah.

He's uh, he's actually
a really good villain.

JB: Yeah.

I think we, we might've briefly mentioned
the speech he gives about his family.

That's one of the, the most human moments.

Jude: Yeah.

We talked about that in civil
war, but I don't think we brought

up Falcon in the winter soldier
where you really get to dig into.

When you

JB: finally do get to see him in
the mask as well, which is awesome.

Oh yeah.

Daniel mentioned Ronan, which we
talked a little bit about and, uh,

I, I would include Ronin in the
slightly underused category as well.

He's particularly coming from
a comics reader standpoint.

There's a lot more to Ronan in the
comics and he is a major threat

all on his own without vanish and
not to mention a, an awesome suit.

Oh yeah.

That's a great character

Trey: design that guy.

And this one comes in from kin and I
know I probably shouldn't play favorites,

but I'm going to play favorites.

It's my favorite answer.

He put in quotes, creative
differences, the ultimate evil.

And, uh, yeah, I think, uh, I
responded to, uh, to him with a

GIF of, of ant man, uh, because
I think that is within the MCU.

What are the ones or the most public
creative differences in terms of

the directors that were attached
and ultimately we came of it.

Uh, but I thought, I thought that
was a creative answer on Ken's part.

It broke up

JB: the Beatles.

That's pretty evil.

Jude: Well, they broke up, broke
up the Beatles sent off Edgar

rights and off Scott Derrickson.

Uh, Patty Jenkins sent her off to,
uh, she was, she was actually in line

to do, uh, I think door dark world.

Yes.

Before Alan Taylor.

Oh, wow.

I

JB: don't think I knew that.

That's awesome.

Can only imagine what that film
would have been like petty had,

Jude: uh, from Instagram.

R our IgE or Insta, depending on your
age, apparently Marvel with Ryde, uh, said

Hela and yeah, well first K bunch yet.

Fantastic.

That would have been really cool.

Uh, and trade I've talked
about this in various pods.

It would have been really cool to see her
drawn-out whether it was like Disney plus.

So you really get a long form, um, or
again, you could make a case of the

two-part treatment.

Yeah,

JB: I agree.

And she's one of those
characters that she's on.

I think she's my number three.

And then the reason is because
her motivations make a lot

of sense, but she is evil.

She, she is brutal.

She does horrible stuff.

She's unequivocally a villain, but you
can, you see where she's coming from and

it's rough to be cast out of your family.

You know,

Trey: that's a strong motivation.

I mean, I was completely fine with
it whenever they were aligned on

the same ideals, but because he
had a change of heart suddenly,

you know, she was ostracized.

JB: Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Great character.

Maybe we'll see a multi-verse variance.

Oh.

At some point.

Jude: Yeah.

Would be interesting.

JB: Right.

Friend Daniel.

I said Loki.

And, uh, we talked a little bit about
looking at the beginning of the pod

and the fact that especially early
on he's, uh, he is a full on villain.

You're just scared.

It killed 80 people in two days.

If we didn't have the rehabilitate,

my brother, he killed 80 people
in two days, he's a doctor.

Uh, he low-key gets it's actually like
you can really see a lot of the worth

of the MCU, just in the character love.

Low-key like how they successfully
rehabilitated such an awful character,

made him human for lack of a better
term, uh, in that, in that series, the

moment where it, Wilson sits down in
Loki and you just, you see the weight

of the guilt of all of these done,
you see him evolving into a better

human and that's that's awesome stuff.

Trey: Oh, yeah.

Yeah, man.

I like your breakdown of that whole.

Yep.

Thanks buddy.

Thanks for having me on your podcast.

Thanks for coming back.

Uh, moving along, uh, another Instagram
stories, response comes in from TK.

Our friend over at there was an idea of
Marvel cinematic universe podcast, uh,

where she says shout out to vulture.

And again, I, I we've definitely covered
him extensively here in this podcast.

Shout out to Michael Keaton,
Michael freak and Keaton.

That's what else needs to be said?

Hey, and you know, we didn't
even think about this.

He's still around in the MCU,
so it may not be the end of his

JB: I'm holding out hope for some form
of sinister six or, I mean, some like a

super villain team led by, by my hooky.

Yeah.

Jude: I don't know if I do my next one.

I wanna do a quick correction
with hella and Marvel with red.

Uh, I forgot to mention Marvel with Ryde
is the host of eternally obsessed podcast.

Uh, completely.

Miss that red.

I apologize.

What did he get that in there?

Um, yeah, uh, this one though,
um, comes from Cody best

camp and it's the government.

Um, yeah.

Um, I ain't touching this

well, you know, I mean, it's interesting
because you have the world council,

um, I'm just trace it really quick.

Right.

Um, if you think through, with the role
that the government and military played in

iron man, incredible Hulk iron man, too.

Um, right.

Avengers, uh, captain America, the winter
soldier, you know, it's it's civil war.

Um, I really extenuated the S and
we'll need a civil type there, sorry.

Um, homecoming, you know, like
the over reaction, but you

have the department of control.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's right department.

Cheers, Lord Jamie's control

Trey: John Walker.

Jude: Yeah.

Like, like it's, it has
a long history, so yeah,

Trey: it's definitely one of the answers
that I was not expecting in the responses

and it provoked a lot of thoughts.

So

JB: yeah.

That's a good hot table.

I appreciate that.

Yeah.

Trey: Speaking of hot dogs.

JB: Yeah.

Captioned life is, is like me
trying to start a fight between

Trey and Jude and I'm here for it.

Tony stark as a villain, I feel like
I should really throw this to you guys

and you don't have to fight about it,

Jude: but, uh, okay.

Sean, for the caption life podcast,
Tony stark villain, um, wrong.

Trey: Tony's not

Jude: cool enough to be.

Okay.

So I'm, I'm trying to go there
with him and trying to think

of what context that would be.

And so I'm going to be excited to hear,
I mean, yeah, that, that logic, um, poop

JB: stir, I'm trying
to not swear, put like.

Tony stark is an irritant, for sure.

Even in that scene in Avengers where
they're being manipulated by the

staff and low-key, it really just
starts out as Tony and Tony, you know?

And I mean, if, if, if that is some of
what captain life is, he was talking

about, I can absolutely see that point.

Jude: Yeah.

You know, I mean, you could say
that maybe in civil war, like you,

obviously you can call into question
about encouraging the 15 year old.

Trey: Yeah.

There's, you're not

Jude: be a superhero
child endangerment, right?

Like, yeah.

Like, man, you got gotta there's things
you can point to, but trunk and . Yeah.

But to me, I guess when you put the
whole arc together, like, like we were

looking for moments and when you put
the whole art together all the way to

the end game, it's, it's a tough sell.

So I be here to interested
in hearing arguments.

Well, let us know on that.

Yeah.

Um, and I'm sure I know he will.

Uh, and I'm excited to hear it.

Uh, Instagram comments, the
last one from Ben, Maddie.

I'm sorry.

Ben dot Maddie.

You understood why he did what he did,
what he did and empathized with him,

despite how extreme his methods were.

A Michael B.

Jordan played his incredibly
well, uh, or no, I'm sorry.

Played him incredibly well.

And his last words stick with
you long after the finale

or the final credits roll.

Um, yeah, I, um, well, I, I
mentioned this was my favorite

I'm right there with you Ben.

And that's something I'm surprised.

None of us mentioned, uh, because we
talked about Killmonger, but the name

Mike, until now the name Michael B.

Jordan mentioned, and he
did such a phenomenal job.

And

JB: I mean, it's an argument
that he disappears into the

Jude: character so much.

Yeah.

And, and there's one of those
things where like JB mentioned, like

narratively speaking, he had to die
and I don't, and I, I agree with that.

But the talent you lose
moving forward is huge.

JB: And to Ben's point too, he
does have some phenomenal speeches.

His, his justification speeches
might be the best of the MCU as far

as the villain, because he, he, you
know, he's, he's, he's so charming.

He's so compelling.

He's such a persuasive, uh, orator that
like, I mean, if Killmonger had just been

given a little bit longer, a little bit
more Tom on this earth, and you can see

glimpses of it in the, what if series
he could have done a lot more damage.

Jude: Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

Trey: So just to, to put, uh, a bow on
this, I want to make sure we give justice

to the speech we're talking about.

Uh, this is the quote in the movie, just
bury me in the ocean with my ancestors

that jumped from the ships because they
knew death was better than bondage.

And I'm right there with Ben.

That was just echoing in me for days
after watching black Panther for the

first time, it is such a huge line
and such a performance from Michael B.

Jordan.

JB: That is Titus.

That is, that is a
philosophical meal right there.

That's such, such, such good writing.

Plus on top of two brilliant performances.

Just,

Jude: well, I mean, you were talking
about like spending an episode on a lie.

Trey: Well that, uh, that's
gonna wrap up the responses.

So, uh, I just want to go ahead and say
for everybody that reached out to us,

both on Twitter and Instagram, thank
you so much for chiming in, it's always

a great time getting to read, uh, your
takes on the topic that we have at hand.

Jude: Yes, absolutely.

Trey: And on that note, uh, I do want
to say JB, it's been a long time coming,

getting you back on this podcast.

So from the bottom of my heart,
thank you so much for joining us.

This has been a fantastic discussion.

JB: Um, I, it has been nothing but a joy
and, uh, we, we mentioned this in our

little pause breaks, but, uh, we probably
could have gone another three hours.

I mean, it's just, there's, there's a
lot of things that we didn't get to say.

And, and just, um, it's just
so easy to talk to you guys.

I, as a fan of the podcast, not even as a,
as a guest or a cohost, it's just such a

welcoming space to talk about this stuff.

You know, it's, it's not heavy on the
cynicism, you know, we can make our

jokes about dark world or, or whatnot
here and there, but like, it's just

a, it's just such a welcoming, um,
Good, like positive spin on there's so

much default cynicism in the world of
nerd dumb, you know, uh, and it's just

really refreshing to, to come to a place
where let's just throw around ideas

and talk about our specific takes on
things and change each other's minds.

You know, like it's, I mean, that's,
it's been an absolute blast and I can't.

Thank you guys enough for having me here.

And Jude, just to say again, it's been
awesome having you here this time.

That's just been

Trey: amazing.

Jude: Yeah, I appreciate it.

And the gosh, the, the, the
interaction and just the, the way

you framed, the way you frame things
that just really forced me into.

You know, questioning my own thoughts and
from what I had, uh, it was a lot of fun.

JB: Absolutely.

My great pleasure cannot.

Thank you.

Yeah,

Trey: anytime.

And of course, if you want to keep up
with JB, uh, make sure you're following

them on Instagram at JB love S a V a
you can keep in contact with them there

as well as some of their future work.

As for this show.

Uh, if you'd like to comment on
anything we talked about today in

regards to the villains in the MCU,
you can always reach us at MCU need

to know on Twitter and Instagram.

Uh, we've been doing work to put up
bonus content that does not make the

final cut of the feed as well as extra
opportunities to help shape the show.

So if you want to weigh in on whatever
it is we're talking for that week,

especially whenever moon night shows
up and we ask for listeners takes

on those episodes, make sure you're
following us to help shape the show.

Ooh,

Jude: yes.

Yes.

So pumped so excited

Trey: for that.

Definitely going to have you
back on for moon nights, since

that is your area of expertise,

Jude: while you're waiting for
midnight rolled down to the bottom

of the show notes, click on the
link to join our discord and start

talking about Moonlight speculations.

Now, has we have.

Those channels for it minority also
to get there, make sure you click

on the role of sign, click the
emoji, and have access to those.

What the best things you can do for us
rating and reviews, sharing with friends,

uh, help, you know, build the, yeah.

Trey: We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy
for the use of our theme song, which

is his rendition of the Avengers theme.

You can find more of his work
in a SoundCloud, which is linked

in the show notes as well.

That's going to do it.

Thank you so much for
listening and Jude and JB.

Thanks so much for doing this.

Jude: Thank you, JB.

Trey: We'll see you all next week.

okay.

Pause.

Uh, we're getting pretty
close to done here.

I think the only thing left
we have on the outline is the

listener's favorite villains.

Um, I wanted to just check with you first.

JB, do you have a hard out, do
you need to ramp this up soon or.

JB: No, I'm only trying to
be brief because we've been

going for two hours now.

And I don't know how long you guys usually
record before edits, but I mean, I could,

I'm like I could go three more hours.

I have no hard out.

We could make this a two episode
discussion easily because there's

things that I have written down
that I haven't talked about.

I mean, there's plenty of like,
I could have gone off on hello.

Cause I have a lot of thoughts about
how to, um, but it's no, it's just

about trying not to drag you guys into a
longer podcast and you want to do well.

I

Trey: appreciate it.

But my schedule is completely,
I mean, I I'm totally fine.

This conversation has been fantastic.

So I just wanted to make sure that, that
wasn't like, oh, I got to get out of here.

Kind of thing.

I got

JB: appeal a little
bit, but I can hold it.

Jude: Well, I think we're in
a pile and I have two as well.

So if you want to step away
for just one second before

we wrap up, that is a perfect

JB: idea, dude.

This is the first

Trey: pee break in recorded history.

When again,

JB: you're going to put this
in the index and I'll tell you

Trey: I'm going to make this official.

I'm gonna join you.

Awesome.

JB: Well, I'm so proud to be
a part of the first piece.

You need to know history near me.

Jude: So I put my head in the bedroom.

I was like, we're almost done.

We're, we're kind of wrapping
up all three of us, all three.

Oh, let's say we, we, uh, put my
head into the bedroom and I was

like, Hey, we're almost done.

We're getting close.

And they're just empty now.

And I was just like, we all
three need to pre-bake a pee

break, too much information.

JB: What are we laughing about?

I heard laughter from my
headphones before I put them off.

Trey: Wait, who are you talking to?

JB.

Wasn't mad.

JB: Were you talking to the air too?

Jude: That's funny.

Well, could you put your headphones?

I thought you said I'm back.

So I started talking to.

So w basically, so what you're saying is
you sat down and said, I'm back with that.

Trey: Well, I put them on and I
realized my cord came on blind,

but I could've sworn you were
already talking before I jumped in

Jude: regardless.

Well, I know it was mumbled.

I w I was talking slash self.

Like, I didn't actually speak to a
person until person was supposedly there.

I was

JB: like, for a second there,
I was like, I took too long P

and these guys are like already
talking and laughing at each other.

We was talking to no one, just like,
let's do another hour without checking.

Trey: So, no, it's just the to, I
don't know if you want to retell

that story, dude, uh, about why we

Jude: were laughing.

Oh, oh, I was just, I popped my head
cause I'm in my closet, in the walk-in

closet that you get to from the bathroom.

So I just popped my head into the bedroom
real quick and told my wife, I was like,

Hey, we're we are getting, we're getting
close, you know, about to wrap up.

And, and it was like, all three of us
just took a pee break and my nine year.

Trey: Yeah.

So if this is the, the post credit
of our podcasts, people are going

to be either in your nine-year-old
side or on our community.

JB: That's what I was thinking too.

You're going to get some TMI comments.

Like we don't need to know about you guys.

Social

Jude: media.

JB: Listen, we're getting enough water.

This is what we're saying
to the, there you go.

You're hydrating, responsibly.

Jude: Yup.