Trey: Hello and welcome back to another
episode of MCU need to know a podcast

dedicated to the Marvel cinematic
universe and everything you need to know.

I'm Trey.

Jude: I'm Jude.

How are you doing Trey?

Well, Jude I'm excited because today
we are joined by a return guest and

a frequent shout out in this show.

He's quickly becoming the
Internet's best friend and a

constant delight around the pod.

We're happy to welcome back,
friend Daniel to the show.

Welcome back.

Friend Daniel: Hey guys.

Jude: Welcome Daniel.

Trey: Hey, how's it going?

Friend Daniel: Great to be back.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So I got to say I've been so delighted
for this intro ever since your

recent appearance on There Was An
Idea our friend of the pod Tara's

episode or Tara's show, I should say.

And she referred to you
as friend Daniel as well.

And I immediately texted Jude and I
was like, I know what I'm going to say.

The next time friend
Daniel is on the podcast.

It tickles me so much
that that has taken off

Jude: Well like that like very early
on after you joined the discord,

somebody asked are you friend Daniel.

Friend Daniel: Yeah.

So, Tara had her next guest was Danny.

And so it became very confusing.

My identity.

Trey: Well, you know, the last time that
we had you on this show, it was during

our Falcon and the winter Soldier run.

I thought it'd be cool to use this time
here at the top of the show to check

in with how you've been receiving the
latest iterations of the MCU entries.

So we've recently just finished up Loki.

We've had black widow as well, some
exciting things coming up with What If...?

And Shang-Chi how's how have you
been receiving the MCU are you

enjoying it?

Friend Daniel: Oh, well, you know, if
you're on the discord, you know but

Trey: thank you.

Friend Daniel: I have been
very much enjoying it.

I mean, it's just, it's you know,
I've caught up with you guys.

And I agree with, with Jude
and, and I think you said this

Trey too, but that Loki is Loki
was the strongest show for me.

I'm kind of, I've, I've been forming my
thoughts about it a little bit more, but

just in terms of like cinematic scope
and music and the, the, the dialogue and

the action, it was the whole package.

So I could go on and on about Loki, but
I'll save that for when we do the kind

of compare and contrast and lessons
and stuff, but I really enjoyed it.

And I'm very excited about
future Loki installments.

In future movies and future seasons and
stuff like that for Black Widow, I did not

see it in the theater, but I watched it
on Disney plus and I, I really enjoyed it.

I really enjoyed it.

I haven't watched it again though.

So I haven't done the thinking
and analysis and repeating

and rewinding and stuff yet.

But I've read, I've read about it.

And I've listened, obviously
listened to you guys.

I listened to Tara's podcast.

There Was An Idea and I've just
gotten various perspectives on it.

Jude, the, the latest podcast out
from Kermode they talk about it.

Jude: Oh, wow.

Friend Daniel: Yeah.

So they, they talk about it briefly, but
I'll just, I'll throw that out there.

The podcast is Kermode on Film and
he's a, he's a British film critic.

Hilarious guy loves Christopher Nolan and
they have a broad appreciation of Marvel

movies and comic book movies and stuff.

So, and then as far as upcoming
projects, well, I just saw that

Hawkeye got a release date.

Trey: Yeah.

Friend Daniel: So I'm excited about that.

And I'm, I I'm very, I'm excited about
Shang-Chi every time I haven't seen

the most recent trailer didn't they
release another trailer like yesterday.

Trey: They did.

Yes,

Jude: They did.

And I'm embarrassed to admit
that I didn't catch it.

Trey: You say embarrassed.

I say strict with your philosophy.

I consider that.

a teaser, like a TV spot.

It was only like a minute long, really

Well, like okay.

Philosophy wise.

Yes.

But like, I was scrolling through
YouTube and I saw this thing about

like, as new Shang-Chi trailer released.

Like, I didn't even know
until a good 12 hours later.

Friend Daniel: I didn't watch it.

But yeah, the first
trailer I was like, huh.

And then the second trailer, the full
trailer, not the teaser I was hooked.

So I'm, I'm excited about that.

And then I read, I read
some stuff about it.

So very excited about that.

I'm really excited about Spider-Man
whatever that's going to be about.

And then I'm super jazzed
about the, What If...?

Series very, I love animation.

I always loved What If comics,
when I was a kid because they were

one-offs and so you weren't required.

You're just required to know about.

The character like Captain America
or the X-Men or whoever you've

got to know their basic story.

And then you could see them
playing with the character.

And it was a fun way to be
subversive when there were no stakes.

And I remember getting invested
in characters and they would kill

them, you know, like they would
die, you know, dramatically.

And I was like, oh no, but it's
like, it's, it's a one-off.

So it's, it's not going anywhere.

And so I'm really given how subversive
it can be, how you can be risky and

take emotional risks and do fun things.

I'm actually.

I'm really excited about it.

I think, I don't know.

I haven't really thought
about it out loud that much.

And I'm getting more excited about it.

Just talking about,

Trey: I was going to say, I think
you made me excited, just talking

about how excited you were.

Jude: And that's what
just two weeks now it's

Trey: August 11th,

Jude: August 11th.

Yeah.

Friend Daniel: And then my last thoughts
about everything that's gone on.

And you guys got it.

Cause I, I I've, I've really enjoyed
the Assembled episodes you know,

post finales, but the, the Loki
listeners, if you haven't watched

the Loki assembled, it is profound.

Like it is, it is they've,
they've added something that I

don't remember in the last one.

That is, is is a beautiful
touch and it's really good.

So I would highly recommend
that if you, if you haven't

Jude: seen it,

It's interesting..

That's probably the best assembled.

Trey: Oh, 100%

Friend Daniel: Yeah.

They've gotten better.

Yes.

I think they've gotten better.

Trey: Well, it feels like there's more of
a presentation to Loki than the other two.

And not that there was anything
wrong with the other ones, but

there's like a flourish and the Loki
Assembled that I really enjoyed.

Friend Daniel: I mean, I'll spoil it.

Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's, it's the
voiceover like the voiceover, like,

like Tom Hiddleston voiceover.

It is new.

Yeah.

And, and I can't remember if they have
voiceovers, but they don't have a single

voice narrating the story of Loki.

And

Jude: It's like you said, like
you said, the story is not just

a, it's not just like a hand
holding your way through something.

Like they actually weave a
story into the making of.

Friend Daniel: Yeah.

And the meaning the
meaning of what this is.

I think it's related to the fact
that, you know, Falcon, the winter

soldier I mean, you have, you
have Bucky, but I don't know.

It's Loki, Loki is a very strange
character in his villain antihero hero.

You know, return to the villain.

He he's he's he has this very strange.

I had no idea about the, the story
that he, he was, he was at Comicon and

(Kevin) Feige was like, come out as Loki.

And he comes out and he's lookingat the
people, and the fans went wild and I was.

That was back then, you know?

And so that was th th I, I know they
were playing because they, I mean,

maybe a wink and a prayer in, in Feige's
imagination, you know, maybe someday

we'll do something, but like that, that,
that was that was a, that was, he has

good instincts obviously to just like,
let's see where this goes, you know?

Jude: It's yeah.

Well, and I remembered Loki
or Tom Hiddleston doing that.

I didn't realize that story.

Yeah.

I just didn't know the story behind it.

Trey: It was really cool To get that
run-up and framing of it as like,

oh, this was a last minute thing that
they decided to do behind the panel.

Friend Daniel: So that's
my, my too long verbose.

Jude: No.

Friend Daniel: It's been a lot since.

It's been a lot since since I I've
graced your airwaves on your podcast.

So

Jude: Yeah, you came on with
Falcon and the Winter Soldier,

not during Loki, although we had
this plan before Loki came out.

Friend Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

Jude: So we had this kind of
episode topic circled, and then

you were on Tara's pod during Loki.

Trey: Okay.

Yeah.

Well, speaking of this episode, if you've
downloaded it, then you've seen that the

title of this episode is What Lessons Can
Marvel Learn from the Disney Plus shows,

so the easiest way that we can go through
this is just kind of have like a round

table sharing of the different lessons
that we've brought here for this episode.

So starting with you, Daniel, what is
the first lesson that you think can

be learned from the Disney plus shows?

Friend Daniel: In no particular order?

I think I need to arrive at my lessons
through reflection, so we'll get there.

But for now, I will just say something
that's excited me about this.

The Disney plus is I feel like I
feel the same way, especially with,

with WandaVision and to some extent
with Loki but I feel the same way

as I did when I saw Guardians of
the Galaxy, because I remember, you

know, Avengers and Iron Man and they
were great and they were of a genre.

Right.

And then Guardians of the
Galaxy was just blew it up.

It was so different.

And, and it was like, this is incredible.

I felt like they use this opportunity to
really take some risks that are bigger.

And, and in a, in a blockbuster movie,
when, when you have so much, so many

moving parts and so much money not to say
that there isn't there isn't money flowing

through this, but th the, the level
of risk taking, and so lessons learned

is, you know, I hope it's paid off.

I think it has for, for Marvel.

And I hope that they
continue to, to do that.

And based on kind of stuff that I've
read, you know, Oscar Isaacs had like

a cryptic tweet about Moon Knight

Jude: Aw, I didn't see that.

Friend Daniel: I sat, it
sounds like they're there.

It was just something like, it's
gonna, it's wild, you know, it's

just, yeah, I really think they're
gonna, they're gonna keep doing that.

And not in a way that's like edgy or,
or, or controversial, but truly like

in an aesthetic sense, risky, you
know, like when I, and when I think

of that, I think of like, WandaVision,
what the hell are we watching?

You know, it's like what?

I'm literally sitting here watching.

I rewatched, I started
rewatching WandaVision

cause my parents hadn't seen
it and I was visiting them.

And I was like, you guys, haven't
seen this, let's watch it.

And I started to explain the backstory.

I'm like done.

Let's, let's just watch it.

And I'm sitting there and they enjoyed
it, but I'm like, we're watching

a black and white fifties comedy.

This is banana.

This is crazy.

So, so, you know, I kinda, it just
reminded me, you know, and then with

Loki, it's like, we already had his
story and now we're going back and

we're going to like show you a drawer,
a desk drawer, full of infinity stones.

This is crazy.

So I I like, I really like that.

I think it's a good venue.

For that.

So that's kind of one that's
that's, that's my first thought.

Trey: And I think you're spot
on with the risky or the risks

that these shows have taken.

I know at least for us, when we
were covering WandaVision, that was

the first thing out of our mouths.

I think each week when we talked about
episode one and two and how bold it was

to really lean in to the homages that it
was making with the stylized storytelling.

And I think it just continued
doing that throughout each of

the three disney plus show.

Friend Daniel: I made a note on this,
on this point, it reminded me of my

favorite shows growing up some aspects
of my favorite shows growing up and

how they were able to take big risks.

And you can do this in a show format,
even though these shows are planned

in a way that, that serialized TV that
are like 22 episodes weren't so I'm

thinking specifically of the X-Files
and two episodes that stand out to me in

a, in a huge way were Clyde Bruckman's
Final Repose and it's it's a brilliant,

very post-modern story that plays
with perspective and the, the seams

of near like storytelling it's one of
the highest kind of regarded episodes

of the X-Files and it just pushed the
boundaries on the traditional narrative

that you'd gotten up to that point.

And then the other, the other one
was an episode called bad blood.

Which is it, it's like a vampire
episode, but it's really funny.

And it's told from Mulder's
perspective, and then it's told

from Scully's perspective and,
and, and the stories are different.

Like the details are different,
different things happen.

It's, it's very, very funny
and very, almost silly.

That's how I, that's kinda how I felt.

Jude: Well, it's funny.

You mentioned we've talked
about this Jose Chung's.

Oh, is that isn't that the episode?

Friend Daniel: That's Clyde Brookman yeah.

Jude: Oh, that's Clyde Bruckman?

Yeah.

Or wait,

Friend Daniel: is it sick that I
know exactly which season it is?

It's in.

Jude: No, but I, I,

Friend Daniel: Trey, you know
how you are with Community I'm

that that way with the X-Files

Trey: How disappointed would you
be to find out I've never seen the

X-Files?

Friend Daniel: I, I
understand it's Trey, I don't.

There's no disappointment here.

I promise.

Trey: Oh, fantastic!

Friend Daniel: There's
no disappointment here.

I probably

Trey: I was going for a
rise, I'm genuinely shocked.

Friend Daniel: My podcast,
my pod, my podcast list.

I'm behind my podcast
list is plenty of TV.

It's it's your loss.

It's your loss

Jude: Jose Chung's From Outer Space.

Friend Daniel: Jose Chung's From
Outer Space is a different episode

than the one I'm talking about

Jude: Right.

Friend Daniel: Mine is called Clyde
Bruckman's Finale Reprose, which is

the same season, but it's a totally
different episode, but yeah, Jose

Chung is another one like that.

Yeah.

It's like very, very weird.

Th then there's there, like in, in Buffy

Jude: In fairness toTrey, in fairness
to Trey season three aired in 1996.

Friend Daniel: Oh yeah.

This is ancient

Trey: I would have been five, six years

old, depending on the month.

Friend Daniel: Perfect
age to watch this stuff.

Yeah.

But there's like, there's like in Buffy
they had like the musical episode.

They had a Zander centric episode in
angel, there was a friggin puppet episode

where they get chain turned into puppets.

And so like, I see this in, in that vein
where you've got these, these, these TV

shows that had deep fan fan bases where
the, the show runners or the writers

took these risks and there were payoffs.

Oh yeah.

I feel like we're getting that here.

And I feel like we're, they're gesturing
towards it in, in Thor Love and Thunder.

I feel like we're gonna get this
in Thor Love and Thunder and Dr.

Strange, like, I feel like we're,
we're going to, it's going to be weird.

Jude: Well, one more
episode that came to mind.

Avatar Last Airbender Tales of Ba Sing Se

Friend Daniel: Which remind me
that I'm not, I only watch it once

Jude: Tales of Ba Sing Se is the
one where they each had their little

vignette of how they spend the day.

Friend Daniel: Oh yeah.

It's a freaking cartoon, like on
Nickelodeon and it's like, it's just like

it's so it's, it's, it's really good.

And it's, it's, it's basic writing.

I mean, it's not invented.

New ways of doing things.

They're just, they're adopting
storytelling strategies from other

genres and other, other mediums.

It's just really cool.

Like I just, yeah, no,
that's, that's good.

That's a good first

Trey: lesson, but what about you, dude?

What's a lesson that can be
learned from the Marvel shows.

Jude: I'm going to say for me a lesson
this is more like a hope, something

that they, they do in the future.

I would like to see two more episodes.

I it's, and I don't know if it's, I'm
just gotten used to kind of that Netflix,

Friend Daniel: you mean
like 10 episodes or eight

Jude: episodes, like, right.

Two, two more episodes, 10 episodes
instead of eight, which is weird for

one division only because they had eight
episodes, but a big part of that is this

idea that they're married to six hours.

And so you had some longer episodes and
you had some that were shorter, so that

didn't make an eight episodes, but you
really time-wise is roughly the same.

I would say two more episodes.

I, and I, I just got finished
watching mayor of east town,

which I just really enjoyed.

And that was, and this is weird because
it goes against what I just said, but that

was about seven hours and seven episodes.

So I know it can be done.

I just feel like with what.

They're trying to do with
these Disney plus shows.

Two more episodes is something that
would, would, would benefit the

Friend Daniel: series.

There'd be, it would give them a
little bit more room to breathe.

It really

Jude: would.

It really would.

Well, I mean, I've heard a number of
people say this loved to have seen

a little bit more, including I think
in the assembled the writer loved to

seen a little bit more of rinse layer.

Yeah.

And, and her story, and you know,
that one or two more episodes would

help flesh out some of those things.

Yep.

Same thing with Carly
and Falcon, the winter

Trey: soldier, for sure.

I think even to an extent with, with
Monica and Wanda vision, like she got

a, she got an episode dedicated to
her, but I know towards the end of the

finale, it was almost kind of like she
got sidelined for different stories.

So I, I definitely feel that Daniel,
I think you hit the nail on the head

of, or no, I believe you said it.

Jude, how you just got used
to Netflix or HBO having these

like eight to 10 episode runs.

I think that is the sweet spot and
I understand that they're doing it

probably for budgetary reasons just
because they are spending a lot,

but six just it's cutting it close.

Friend Daniel: I, I think that
they it's, these three series are

experiments and they've worked and
I don't think they're going away,

but we've talked about this before.

None of these shows have learned lessons
from each other because they were all.

Being produced at the same time.

I think they, they were like, we're
going with X or Y or whatever.

There was six hours.

And the, the one thing I will say a, I
think the mark of a good show, unless

it can really hit that catharsis, like
just the perfect catharsis that leaves

you feeling whole, I want a good show.

We'll leave you wanting more.

But especially with Loki, you're getting
a season two and it's different than

like Falcon and winter soldier where,
you know, like Carly's story is over.

And, and even if there, even if
there is any attention paid to it,

it's, it's, it's over and done.

Whereas Loki story and the
characters in it are not done.

Like there were deliberate threads left,
open, and that, and, and it, it was good

on the level of it's a good world-building
show, but it's also good in levels.

Like we're getting a season two.

So there has to be.

Like meaningful threads left.

Trey: Right?

Well, I think I can jump in with
mine because that segues nicely.

So thank you for that set up Daniel.

The lesson that I wanted to bring
in this first round is I think the

other three shows the ones that
succeeded the most for me were the

ones that treated the episodes.

As a series and not as a
movie that's been chopped up.

And that was the feeling I got
with Falcon and winter soldier.

Like it had, it had its connective
tissues, but there was this feeling of

like watching one long movie and only
getting it on a week to week basis.

The one division, I think it told
complete stories while leaving enough

to keep us going through the season.

Low-key I think had a wonderful handle on.

And that's what I want to see moving
forward with these shows and the reason

this kind of segues off what you were
saying, Daniel, is that knowing it's

getting a season two, I think there
is maybe, maybe there's some comfort

in that knowing like you don't have to
hit everything in this first season,

whether or not the audience knows
that I'm sure there's, there's an

understanding going into the production.

Yeah, the lesson that I I'd like to see
moving forward with these distinct plus

shows is kind of identifying the format
of this week to week, rather than it being

written the AB cadence that we talked
about in, in the binge mode for Daredevil,

Friend Daniel: What I hear you saying
tray, the way I would interpret

this embrace, embrace the format,
like embrace this episodic format.

Like it's it it's, it's not,
it's not a six hour movie.

That's this Snyder go.

You know what I mean?

Like that, and.

No, I'm not gonna say it.

So this is, this is, I agree with
you about Falco and winter soldier.

Like there was, it was a constant,
it was linear more or less.

It was linear.

And it was, it was a, it was a
movement through the stories and

the, the beautiful things that we
got were the character development,

because they devoted time to it.

But unlike low-key, which had some
truly earth shattering like there

were, there were these real kind of
cliffhangers that made you revisit

everything that you'd seen before.

And you can mark off, like each
of those episodes in the same way

with Wanda vision, you had the, the
sitcoms, but then it, it would break

and you go into the real world.

Then you go back on the sit-com and
then th the, the, the realities bend.

I think I S I said that.

I think I said this on terrorist pot.

I don't, I don't remember, but when
I was contrasting one division with

Loki, one division made the Metta,
the, the, the, the, the format

of the show, that Metta aspect in
essential aspect of the, of the show.

Loki took that and made it
a part of the narrative.

So it was like, you actually take
the character out of his context

and then show it to him, you know,
and, and then play with that.

Yeah.

I definitely, I think I
definitely agree with you, Trey.

I like how I like no,

Trey: and I like the way that
you're so succinctly put it

with the embrace, the format.

I think that's a very nice way
to package that feeling that I'm

having is just leaning into that
these are series focused more on.

Jude: Well, I'm gonna say, it's
interesting with one division, you

had that feeling early on, like
there was a TV format, but that

was more because of the concept.

And as he got closer and closer to
the end and ran the course of that

concept, it, it shifted to that movie
field rather than television field.

And so in that way, I don't know if
this is the right way to phrase it.

Our one division, especially early on
artificially treated it as a movie.

I mean, I'm sorry.

As a TV series.

And, and always want to say
artificially, she just going to

Friend Daniel: translate it

Jude: transferred.

Right, right.

Yeah.

And whereas like I'm with, you
know, it it's embraced the format.

Right.

Friend Daniel: And Jude, I would say if
we can be honest, like it suffered for

that, like by, I'm not saying they made
it, they made a poor choice in abandoning.

They had to abandon the sitcom thing.

But the critique of say the finale
is that it just fell into the trap

of how you complete a Marvel movie,
which is a big fight scene, you know?

And it was like, oh, we're trying
to be cinematic, which has,

well, you didn't really have the
budget for the, for the fight.

And you know, that wasn't
really the point of the story.

It was about her and her grief.

And you spent like 30
seconds on it at the end.

You know what I mean?

And, and said you haven't
fallen around the sky.

So, so it, it was, whereas in
Loki, there was no, there was

no Big final action scene.

It was a very emotional dance fight.

You know, not Dan.

I mean, it was an elegant fight
between these characters who are

having a real disagreement, you
know, between Lokey and Sylvia.

They're there.

These two people who are, who are growing
closer and have affection for each

other are having a real disagreement.

And it comes out in that
carefully choreographed fight.

Well, and

Jude: coming off the civil
documentary, this whole idea of

the show being self-acceptance and
self-love, and they have this one

last final fight with themselves.

You know, and torn and what is,
is, is the best thing to do.

It just works so well, you know, we're
and I think I mentioned this on pod.

Like I would love to have seen in one
division to have them continue that thread

through what the mysterious ESC kind of
scene going through the sitcoms in the end

and make and instill in her, weave that

Friend Daniel: in kind of drawing
off of the, the tray where we're at

right now about embracing the format.

I really enjoyed the week to week release
and watch and rewatch and discuss.

And obviously like we learned we, the
audience learned a grave lesson with Wanda

vision and in terms of like going off the
rails and, and, and building expectations

with, you know, perceived whatever.

But that happens in shows.

I mean, I, I, I watched lost as it
was happening and the same exact,

like the reason why I, I was really
kind of a curmudgeon or a screw.

During that during Wanda vision.

And, you know, I was kind of, I was kind
of teasing you about, you know, like,

oh, you know, maybe it's someone else.

You know, and, and I was
just like, no, it's not.

It's like just popping that
bubble is because I had gone

through that with earlier shows.

But, you know, unlike say, you know, the
the earlier Marvel shows where you'd, it

would all drop and show still do this.

So like, you've got the boys, you've
got like the Amazon prime shows and

Netflix shows the whole show drops.

And even if you're not going
to binge at all, it's kind of,

that's how you consume the show.

I like this, this actually, this
experience reminds me more of when

I used to watch TV as a kid and you
you'd have to wait each week and watch.

And I appreciated that and I hope
that they continue to do that.

I don't, I don't, it must be a win for
them in terms of marketing and prep.

Right.

Oh

Trey: yeah.

I mean, the conversations around the
show get lengthened just because of

Friend Daniel: that weekly viewing.

Yeah.

So I don't, I don't see,
I don't see it going away.

I'm glad the series aren't 22 episodes.

I don't know how you can sustain that.

Jude: Yeah.

Like that's too much.

Trey: I love Marvel.

I love the MCU.

22 episodes would be a lot
for me to keep up with,

Jude: well, to bounce off that I
would just say embrace the MCU is

one of my lessons learned and I
feel like they're going to do that.

And I guess what I mean by that is go
ahead and make this required viewing.

And I think they kind of did
that at the end of low-key

where you get, he who remains.

I didn't expect it to be him for the
same reason, logically, like we didn't

get somebody new in one division.

And I, and I get, there's like, oh,
we can do that because there's a

season two, but he who remains king
mortis, whatever you want to say

is going to go beyond just low-key.

And I feel like.

This idea of embracing the MCU?

Well, his friend Dana
was just saying it right.

Like I was watching last, you
know, and, and it reminded me that

television reminded me that same
thing in terms of watching TV, being

able to talk about it for a week.

But even if, you know, you're not going
to have a season to say one division,

you know, their stories don't necessarily
in their, I mean, white vision, right.

Scarlet, witch, even ag of the
Harkness, their stories don't end there.

So in that way, I think it's
okay to introduce somebody new.

Well, they did that in fucking
winter soldier, Val, right?

Yeah.

So I think it would have been okay.

And say for them to say, we're just going
to embrace the universe and give you that,

you know, my Festo here that will show up

Friend Daniel: again later.

So like, if I think back to.

To what, to what you're saying.

I know you've been debating and I
have been off pod with you guys.

Like, did, do you have to, are
these shows required watching?

I don't know how you, you get to
the, the, the content that's coming

without having watched low-key.

But like, if you think about like Wanda
vision, you've got Scarlet witch, right.

And there's, there's a
transformation happening there.

You've got Monica.

Who's absolutely coming back.

You've got an in Falcon, winter
soldier, he's captain America that

there that's coming, you know?

No, but however I think you're right.

That in so far as they do embrace the
MCU in those smaller ways, certainly in

those, in those shows and in a really big
way, what they did with Loki at the end.

I think that, I think it's good.

I think they, I think I also.

I also want to see these
characters elsewhere.

So like in, in a kind of reversal
of what you're saying, it's like,

okay, we were invested in, in these
characters, like Mobius is awesome.

Wren.

Slayer's awesome.

Being at B 15 is awesome.

Sylvia's is awesome.

Like, I want to see these characters
interact in, in this broader universe.

That's what made the MTUS Thor with the
guardians of the galaxy was brilliant.

It made it like it reinvented
Thor, you know what I mean?

Like, and so just having these characters
interact, you know, whereas like early

in, in like phase one Ironman kind of
stands on its own, but then, you know,

there's this kind of admission like, oh,
look like captain America and Thor were

kind of driving towards the Avengers
so that you could get them together.

But now we've got these shows that
are, are coherent and really stand on

their own in, in entertaining ways.

But I want to see them,
you know, elsewhere.

So I'm kind of taking
what you said, Jude and.

A little bit.

Does that make sense?

No, it does make

Jude: sense.

It does the

Trey: thing that it's making me feel
and you kind of alluded to it with the

way you framed it as like iron man was
standalone Thor and captain America,

they were building towards the Avengers
and eventually got to this point where

like, Hey, we've got them together now.

So you do get things like Thor and
the guardians or captain America,

civil war, and they're together,
or a lot more of these crossover

events, Carol and Nick fury.

You can do these interconnected things.

And I think that kind of ties
back into what you were saying,

Jude about like embracing the MCU.

Maybe these are just the stepping
stones of the shows, getting

more comfortable doing that.

Because you know, I, I
think you said it last week.

I want these to be required viewing too.

Like I think it, it just rewards the
investment of taking the time to.

Friend Daniel: And they're good.

They're good.

And the characters are entertaining
and I want to see them again.

Jude: I mentioned in the beginning of
this pod, Hawkeye has this release date.

We know that Julaine is going to show up.

We know we're going to
get Kate Bishop rumors.

I'm going to say rumors right now.

Okay.

But I think it's almost confirmed kingpin.

Oh, you show up and Hawkeye.

So we're getting some new characters,
but for the most part, we're

following old characters, Ms.

Marvel's going to be the first one
where it's directly brand new character.

And so what I'm really curious as
the approach of this show of miss

Marvel in terms of, is it going
to have the six hour movie feel?

Are they going to go mode more TV series
feel cause they're, you're getting an

origin story that will carry later,

Friend Daniel: right?

That's a good point.

I see what you're saying.

Yeah.

The three series we've gotten so
far have been operating with fully

established characters and, and Ms.

Marvel, and then like moon night,
you know, when that whole hike

she helped the whole, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, you're not worried about that one.

Trey: Well, you eventually

Jude: get to this point
touching on him as a lot.

He's

Friend Daniel: awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They're going to be gold.

Trey: I mean, I think it just circles
back to your, to your, or bolstering

your points, Jude about embracing it.

Like I think it almost has to, because
you're doing these origin stories.

How could it not matter to the
connectivity of the movies as well?

Jude: Right.

But I'm also curious of what the
impact's going to be on how they did

the storytelling, because there you have
an origin you have to wrestle with you.

Can't just jump in like Loki.

We, we mentioned, or, you know,
friend Daniel mentioned the, the

meta idea of just I'm going to
take him out of his own story.

Make them look at it and
then see what happens.

But you can only do that
because we know his story.

There's a story in place.

Same thing with Wanda vision, you can go
back and mine, the little details from

age of Ultron and those types of things
to kind of build and flesh out a story.

Whereas this is a story from scratch

Friend Daniel: in Falcon, winter soldier.

Ache.

There's a massive question, mark.

Coming off of end game.

You know, this picks up from that
literally is answering the question.

W w what does Sam do, you know, in,
in what, how do salmon Bucky deal

with the fact that their friend
has gone and yeah, that I, I hadn't

thought about that Jude very much.

It's a really good,

Trey: good

Jude: point.

Cool,

Trey: man, it's been a while
since we've dropped a Nick Sandy,

like that, bringing it back.

Jude: Yeah, no doubt in there,

Friend Daniel: Trey.

I don't know why I thought of you,
but mostly because I'm watching

community and now I know where you get
the phrase end tag from, but the the

we've been, we've been very positive.

Well, no, I, I feel like we've been very
measured, but leaning on the positive,

but I think kind of critically, and I know
you guys agree with me is like, we, we, we

all kind of agree that their use of Intacs
in or make credit scenes or whatever

in these were, were either confusing.

Obviously there was important information
revealed in them and that that's a

departure from how they've kind of
functioned in the past, either as kind

of like humor or connecting it to a
future installment, et cetera, et cetera.

So a tease, you know, it's, it's.

At best we've been like, huh.

You know, or, you know, like,
like, like what, like no, you

know, or her, or just interested
in your thoughts about that guys?

Trey: Yeah.

I mean, that's 100%.

The next lesson that I was
going to bring is the Intacs

definitely need to be readdressed.

You know, we talked about it a little
bit with Loki, especially when Rob Logan

was on and you know, my feelings just
to state it clearly the Intacs for me,

feel like they either are a humorous,
just kind of extraneous little bit that

has nothing to do with the snow steaks.

Right.

Group dancing you know,
just stuff like that.

The, the aunt playing drums and ant
man, and the wasp though, that does

have an undertone of other things it's
mainly just humorous or the other route.

I think

Jude: both of them though, both of
those that you mentioned also had an

in tag that had a connective tissue

Friend Daniel: as well.

There were multiple end tags.

Well, that's what I

Trey: was going to say.

Like the, the, the other.

I think successful use of them is that
laying the groundwork for what comes next?

I think the problem that the Disney
plus shows got into is they were using

pertinent information to the story within
the show that I think shouldn't have

been relegated to like the post credit

Friend Daniel: scenes creating
the were creating cliffhangers.

I mean, it was like, like with the, with
the Lokeys it's like you, you P you prune

our Loki and then you end the episode.

That's a cliffhanger
what's going to happen.

Is he dead?

Is he dead?

Or do you, do you think maybe
he's alive, but you don't know.

And then you, you reveal that he's
not, but you reveal these other Loki's.

So we talk about that.

Like, I understand why they do it.

And not because they didn't want people
to think he wasn't dead, but they wanted

to introduce the Lokeys so that people
could talk about them for the week.

That's my opinion about that.

I think that's why they, that, that
that's probably, I can understand that

choice even though I think narrative.

I think it's more impactful to like,
put that off for a week, whether or

not we've killed our main character,
but it supports what you're saying

Trey about like you put very pertinent
information in a mid credit scene.

Like, well, shoot, I need a way to
get us to just watch the credits.

Is that all all?

Is that just where we are?

We are we're at now.

Like, I don't know.

I watched credits anyway,
cause they're good.

Well, I mean,

Trey: I went back through to, to watch
all the intaglio for the show so far,

and I was shocked to be reminded.

We don't learn that director Hayward is
arrested and told the post credit scene.

It's like a little one-off thing
of seeing him be putting in a car,

why Monica is being pulled away.

And like that's one of
your main antagonist.

And like that's something
that needs to be in the show.

Rather than thought.

Jude: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and we've, we talked about the tag
problem all the way back to Wanda vision.

I think it was the snoopers
going to Snoop one.

Yeah.

You know, which was a good Intacct, but
it was like, it was like, why not just,

why couldn't that be in the show, but
it was, it felt like you're going to

start the show with her captured and
you need to figure out a way to do it.

Right.

Whereas you could've had the same
feeling and effect, I guess, as an

audience on the audience, by having
that within the show itself, you know,

intercutting that within what's going on.

Friend Daniel: Were, were there
any other tray, were, were there

any other end tags and Loki Loki?

No,

Trey: it was the group shot.

And the season two announcement, which is
honestly a step above the vendor's trailer

and captain America, the first set, not

Friend Daniel: even an end tag,

Jude: I didn't consider that intact.

I was disappointed.

I didn't tell it.

Wasn't intact.

Friend Daniel: I mean, I
was pleasantly surprised.

I mean, I would have
liked an intact though.

I felt like we deserved it.

You know what they could

Jude: have done, you know, what
they really could have done.

You could have, and I'm not saying
this is the best way to go, but

it would have been consistent with
the way they're treating in tags.

The reveal of Mobius in
hunter 15, not knowing Logan.

And then locally seeing
the statue of king.

Friend Daniel: That was the,
that would be the end tag.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know.

I don't know.

I thought it was perfect.

Well, I'm

Jude: torn because I agree.

Like, I don't think

Friend Daniel: you're saying
like, if, if they're being

Jude: consistent, if they're
being consistent with how they're

Friend Daniel: doing, we
would've thought it was crap.

We would've thought it was crappy,
but at least you're consistently crap.

Trey: Oh no, I totally see what you mean.

Like I love, I love the way he was
handled, but it would have felt right

in line if they would have done that.

Yeah.

Friend Daniel: And then, and then at
the end tag, the Intex in a Falcon

winter soldier one, I remember.

John Walker making his shield.

Right.

Trey: And the other one was the
power broker coming out of the

hearing where she's been reinstated.

Right.

And she's like, super soldiers are off
the menu, but we're about to get access

to government weapons and stuff like that.

And then the slight

Friend Daniel: smile, whereas the,
there was, but it wasn't, it wasn't.

Oh, but Lee, the Patriot, right.

Him, him or us agent him becoming us
agent that was in the episode, right?

Yes.

That's that feels like an end tag, right?

Yes.

Jude: Are we flipping them?

Friend Daniel: I know I'm
I'm Trey when watched him.

So I'm, I'm certain that
that were introduced to USC.

In the episode that I feel like

Jude: belongs.

So basically, yeah.

So basically they should have flipped.

Those were so smart.

Friend Daniel: Well,

Trey: well, you know what?

I forgot.

I had wrote this a little bit
that I forgot to do at the top.

You know, we're so frequently putting
our writer's hat on whenever we do

week to week episodes this week,
we're putting our studio execs hat on.

Yes.

Jude: Yeah.

Can I, can I throw out a small,
no, I'm not gonna say small.

A rumor that I heard about the,
the PowerBroker thing is we're

talking about that in the tags,
even though it has, if right.

Potential spoilers down the line, I'll

Trey: say yes, but like, I guess,
you know, if you're avoiding it,

scroll ahead for like 30, 40 seconds.

Okay.

Jude: Okay.

Oh man.

Now, now I'm not sure.

Cause it connects

Friend Daniel: to Spiderman.

Okay.

Don't wait.

Don't say it well, just
cut it out and then say it

Jude: again.

I'll drop it.

Forget

Friend Daniel: it.

I'll drop it.

Well, I want to know what it is.

I've been sitting on this, but
I'll I'll, this is the second

rumor that you've dropped in this.

This is it's true.

Bad Jude.

You did

Trey: the

Friend Daniel: kingpin one.

Well, that's all over the news.

I feel like that's over.

They've been reporting that

Jude: and like, and like the only
reason why I felt comfortable bringing

it up is because Vincent is that

Friend Daniel: saying that

Trey: right?

Trey, Vincent and
Vincent done off for you.

And I know this because
this is a running bit

now it's your turn to get it wrong.

Jude: So so yeah, but no, like.

I think either is retweeted or liked
and he's pretty active on Twitter.

Yeah.

An article or something about the rumor
that it could be interpreted as like how

he just, you know, wants it to happen.

But people are interpreting
it as a confirmation.

Friend Daniel: Well, I'm
going to find this now.

Yeah.

Trey: I'm very curious
about the Spiderman thing.

Jude: Now I'll tell you
what I'll tell you off.

I'll tell you when we're done recording.

Friend Daniel: Okay, cool.

So another lesson that I was thinking
about was just a lot of the production

aspects of the, of the shows, but
especially with Loki was the, it

gets connected with the risk-taking,
but the music was tremendous.

And so I, and, and I've
gone and listened to look.

I enjoyed listening to the Falcon
of the winter, winter soldier

soundtrack more than I expected.

I, and that caused me to kind of go back
and listen to some of the soundtracks.

The scores of other movies, but
but Loki's elevate was elevated and

it was very moving at the, at the
moments when it like good music.

Signals good music follows
the, the, the, the story.

It doesn't dictate it in, in my opinion.

And so it just, it just, it, it
was extremely moving and fun.

And there's a meme that I posted
on discord, or maybe I sent it to

you, but it's like, Hey, you know,
composer, like, we need a, we need

a an outro for the, for, for Loki.

And it shows the person like, like jumping
on a piano, that's on fire, you know,

on the ocean or something like that.

That's like, that's like, it's like, Hey,
we just need an outro for, for for the,

for the epic, for this episode of Loki.

And it's like, like the piano on fire.

It's just like, it just
totally like, like blew.

It blew me away.

I was like, whoa.

You know, I remember watching the
end credits two or three times.

So I thought that was a great investment.

Bye you don't see that often.

This is my point.

See, I told you Trey, it takes
me a little while to get there.

This is my point.

They may, they clearly made a unique
investment in their scoring on low-key.

And I want to see more of
that, more of that, because

you rarely see a show, right?

New and credits music for every
episode, it just doesn't happen.

It's just, it's not the
it's not standard practice.

Unless you're choosing like true blood
used to choose used to, they used to name

their episodes after song lyrics, and
then the song would play at the end of

the show and it was, it was relevant and
it was cool, but most shows play like a

standard, you know, upbeat or whatever,
you know, law and order or something.

This, this was.

And, and, and I'm fairly certain that.

One division and one division
barely had a score at the end.

It was a very dark ominous, you know, but
it was the same thing every time I think.

Jude: Yeah.

One divisions intro outro.

Yeah.

Wonder I was gonna say one division
outro was the same each time.

Yes.

And then the intro is different,
but that was a function of

Friend Daniel: the whole storytelling
that was straight up storytelling.

Jude: The sitcom format.

Yeah.

Friend Daniel: And, and low-key,
it was just for the, it was

just for the sake of it.

I love that.

I think that's awesome.

It speaks to the aesthetic of
the show in the sense that it

takes aesthetics in themselves.

It's like, this is good in itself.

It's not it's it's it
actually it's excessive.

And it's it's in line with Loki.

Jude: Well, what does the symbol say?

Loki plays all

Friend Daniel: the keys, right?

Plays.

That was, oh my gosh.

Yeah.

Yeah, that show he plays all the keys.

So, I mean, that's, it, it
was, it was, it was indulgent.

It wasn't excessive because excessive
denotes, it was a little too much,

it was indulgent like a big bowl of
ice cream, you know, or something,

something you shouldn't have too much of.

It was indulgent and I love indulgent.

I love big fat books.

Like I love reading like
thousand page books.

That was, that was, that's
what you get with low-key.

So maybe we won't see it in the
future because because it's not

in character with what we're, what
we're getting, but that's definitely,

Jude: but it works so well.

It you're right.

The end of an episode would leave
you a particular feeling and

they wouldn't take you out of
the feeling with the outro music

Friend Daniel: they kept you in and
then they, but you also saw it with

the, the, the, the care for the,
the unique aesthetic of the place.

Of the TVA of the of the rocks cart
setting of the Citadel they were

of momentous was, was mind blowing.

And that's not too, that's not, I'm
not trying to take away from the very

careful, wonderful work that was done on
Falcon, winter, soldier, and one division.

It just, maybe it speaks
to my imagination more.

It speaks more to my imagination.

It was indulgent.

Yeah,

Trey: I think, cause
you're definitely right.

The, the steps they took with Loki in the
music created that tailored experience,

the way it changed on, you know, at the
end of the episode, but you know, you're

echoing one of the things I wrote down,
I think all three of the series had great

music and it seems like it's a great
lesson moving forward to keep investing.

As you said with, with the attention to
that music, because that was something

that I remember reading as a very common
criticism with the MCU, like outside of

few of the recognizable of interesting,
maybe this could be just because I'm

the captain America fan the winter
soldier one always stuck out to me.

Other than that, there wasn't really
a lot of recognizable ones in the MCU.

And the fact that.

Three Disney plus shows have come in and
they have been a lot more identifiable,

I think, as a great, hopefully continued
lesson for not only Disney plus shows

just the Marvel studios moving forward.

Yeah,

Friend Daniel: I think that absolutely.

In, in like in picking up in what you're
saying, Trey, I think that each, each of

these shows had its own unique flavor.

And I think it's fair to say that Falcon
with winter soldier was definitely playing

to that more traditional Marvel movie.

It's definitely what you were getting.

One division, very
unique in his character.

Low-key very unique in its character.

My lesson, my, my, my hope with
Marvel is that they, they continue

to let their creative teams do that
and make, make them not formulaic,

I guess that's to make it crass.

Like I don't, I, that was actually
one of my fears going into this

was, was that they were going to be,
they were just going to be similar.

No.

Jude: Well, I'm wondering
if that's just going to be a

trend for the MCU in general.

And, and it's hard to judge right
now only because I'm thinking

about how wild we expect Dr.

Strange and Spiderman Noah home to be
we have Sean cheek coming out and black

widow like that movie, as much as I
agree, like, oh, we should've had it

sooner in terms of a black widow movie.

I agree that we don't get that movie,
that same movie if it was sooner.

And I think that part of
that is that comfortability.

You almost, you know, we're,
we're starting to see of letting

these creators create and get a
little bit more leeway with their

style among the shared universe.

Friend Daniel: I see what you're saying,
dude, as it relates to black widow, I

see what you're saying, that that kind
of unique stamp and I mean, there in the

Jude: sheriffs are a perfect place
to do these Disney plus shows.

Perfect place to do

Friend Daniel: that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

Trey: yeah.

I think that is a good swath of lessons to
be learned from these Disney plus shows.

So we're going to move into this
next section, which is simply,

which of the three shows is the
closest model of your examples.

I have a feeling based on the enthusiasm,
but I'll go ahead and ask Daniel, which

one is the one that executes it closely?

Friend Daniel: Low-key yeah.

And that's just because I think
I identified it there at the end.

Of my last point is, is the, the, the
specific aesthetic and feel of Loki, what

it's trying to do the specific content to
about self-acceptance and the radical way

in which it was operating narratively,
each episode, kind of undercutting,

undercutting, what was quote true before?

Like it, it would present
itself coherently.

I thought mostly Jude.

And and and, and then, and then it would,
it would, it would pull the rug out.

To, to further the story, but
it was mind-bending and it used

inter used interlude episodes.

You guys call it AB well, you mentioned,

Jude: you say interlude, you
mentioned it on Ontario's pod

Friend Daniel: spot.

It's her word?

She, she introduced that when she was
when she had her guests ch on and I talked

about it because I thought it was such
a great concept to help me understand.

What was going on in episode three.

Jude: Right.

But it, it, it just the way you, the way
you spoke about it on terrace pod was

it was in the context of music, right?

Friend Daniel: Yeah.

And I've also seen that concept used
in certain theology, monographs and

philosophy books, you know, like,
like arguments that people make.

They will have a chapter.

That's an interlude where they introduce
something that seems out of left field,

but it's, it's, it's like it's a way
of playing the motif of your argument

using, using something that, that
seems to be kind of out there, but

Jude: Gladwell so

Friend Daniel: much.

Why?

Because he does the interlude.

What do you mean?

Jude: That's his whole style
to take seemingly well, I mean,

this is his whole style, right?

As a deconstructionist, let's just
take this whole seemingly left-field

things that you're like, what am I,
what are we to and talking about this?

And then all of a sudden
you're like, oh, okay.

Yeah, yeah,

Friend Daniel: yeah.

He's he's I love Malcolm Gladwell,
but he's too cute by half.

Like sometimes like he's,
he's a little excessive.

Yeah.

He's excessive.

And he's a bit, he's a bit,
he's got the journalistic flat.

He leans more not to knock journalists.

I would say he's got the, he's a show.

He's a bit of showman, but he's, he's
he's certainly fun and makes you think.

But but yeah, so that's quick answer
Loki in terms of what was the most

satisfying for me, but in, I will say
we can't truly compare Loki to the other

two CS series until low-key has done
so until we get a true series finale,

we cannot, it, we can't compare it
to the other series and maybe it's in

comparable because those were limited
series and low-key got multiple seasons

where they could, they could do a
season, learn lessons and then produce

another season that in itself, you can't,
you know, it's not a limited series.

However, I've always maintained.

It's very difficult to end a series.

Very difficult, like and to do it in a way
that's satisfying and that, that you're

never going to make people have everybody
happy, but Loki did not have to confront

that issue because it is not over.

And so you can't, you can't, I really
don't think it's, it's possible

to involve, involve Loki in that
conversation that we had about this,

the series finale of, of Falcon,
winter soldier, and one division,

because it's, it's, it's not over yet.

There were deliberate threads left, open.

So characters resolved in, in one
division and in Falcon when the

soldier that did not resolve in Loki
Sylvie's character is not there.

There's like a big question, mark,
hanging on her on rent Slayer.

To some extent on low-key, you know,
has just experienced this betrayal, you

know but we're going to see more so, so

Jude: yeah.

Well, I'm going to say, go back and say,
that's the problem with not two things,

not embracing the MCU fully and not
embracing the TV format, just because.

If, you know, this story is going
to continue in the universe.

And as a limited series, I think you
lean into that roll into it, and you

don't feel the pressure of having to
complete it, like complete your story

here, knowing that I have this story
and it's done, but it's clearly going to

continue on elsewhere and that's okay.

And I think that the problem with
treating it like a six hour movie or

chopped up, it just didn't lend itself
to that because I mentioned earlier, like

I just finished watching that mayor of
east town, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

That's a limited series and they ended
it well, you know, it's possible to do.

Yeah.

It's unbelievably possible.

We've been the TV miniseries.

We've been doing it for a long time.

Yeah.

Friend Daniel: What do you, so
what do you guys I'll present

the question to you guys?

Jude: Just the metaphor of
MCU fatigue in the truck and

Falcon pushing back against it.

Whereas the Disney plus shows come in.

Friend Daniel: I

Jude: had to get it in there.

Yeah, no, I agree with you that
it's low-key but I also agree with

you to say low-key probably had
the advantage in the season too.

Trey: Yeah, no, I, I think you kind of
shed some light on that for me as well.

Daniel, when you talked about how it's,
it's not a fair comparison for Loki and

the other two shows, given that it has
that continuation to the next season.

So the way you phrase it, Jude with that,
an unfair advantage is kind of where

Jude: I'm at now.

Even with that in mind.

W w before knowing that Logan was
going to have a season two, each

episode of Loki felt like a proper end,
like you would get with a TV series.

Yeah.

And so before knowing that, and
just the experience of watching it,

regardless of my feelings and bogged
down in mechanics and all of that, at

the end of each episode, it felt like
the end of an episode, and we're going

to wait a week for the next episode.

And so while that is an advantage,
Loki clearly did that better.

Friend Daniel: Yeah.

I agree that the, the best example
of that for me is episode three, when

we're all watching, waiting for them
to get off the planet or something.

And it's just over there looking
up, it blows up Sylvie turns around

and walks away and it's over.

And you're like, you don't do this to us.

What are you, what are you doing?

I mean, that's not.

That's geez.

I mean, it was, it was, and, and it also
spoke to how riveting that episode was

in terms of like, it was, it was heavy
dialogue, which was very interesting.

And then this like one quote, one
shot panned, you know, panning

shot that like, you know, running,
running through this town.

And then it's just like over, you know,
I, I was, I was on the edge of my seat.

Jude: Well, I'd say the same thing
when Moebius and Loki got pruned and

undercutting that moment with the intact.

Yeah.

Like, like they were able to pull the
rug out from under us and expectations.

It's like, oh man.

Yeah.

I

Friend Daniel: thought they killed
them because for two reasons, one,

they had already killed Moebius.

So they foreshadowed it.

The state, they foreshadowed
the stakes mobi for me.

Moebius.

Character arc had completed.

I think I talked about this in Tara's pod.

He had just completely flipped and
betrayed Brent Slayer and freed low-key

and was like, you've been lying to us.

His character story had had resolved.

And so I was like, oh, he's dead.

You know?

Cause he's like, he, he,
he hasn't more function.

And then, and they, and they did it.

So, so I was like, wow.

And then when it happened to
low-key, I was like, oh my gosh,

they totally did the same thing.

And also he, he, in his mind had cared.

He cared about Sylvie, I guess I'm,
I'm talking myself out of it though.

If he had said, I love you or I
care about you and she heard it,

but he didn't actually say it.

So, no, they didn't say, you know,
if he had said it and then been

pruned and he was dead and now the.

With Sylvie and it's about Sylvie.

Yeah, but but I, I, I agree Jude with
that, with that characterization,

you know, and, and, and episode two,
when they, when they blew up the

timeline, when, when she said all
the, the, the charges off and blew

up the timeline, which, which I think
that I can forgive them of that now,

because it was a foreshadowing of the
final scene when the actual timeline.

Like, like blows up, you know, with Kang,

Jude: you know, and I'm sure I'm
thinking through one division, it's

hard to tell because so many episodes
in the beginning had that sitcom format.

Right.

And then you start to, and they
played with that to take you in and

out of the show and even where you
roll the credits, but the credits got

interrupted with the eighties format,
you know, and, and you got sucked

in, in faculty, the winter soldier.

I feel like man, the only episode that
really comes to mind where I, the ending

of that you get, that kind of feeling
was when the Wakandans showed up.

But that's the only ending
right now that sticks out to me.

I'm sitting

Friend Daniel: here

Jude: thinking, yeah.

I mean, the only other that
I can think of the one where

Friend Daniel: they kills
that guy in the street.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that was just, that was just brutal.

Right.

You know, that was just brutal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It wasn't like, it wasn't like a, it was
just a brutal and then it was like, oh

Jude: yeah.

But in the terms of like, just yeah.

Yeah.

So that's a good one.

Those two.

Friend Daniel: Yeah.

It was memorable.

It was memorable.

So yeah.

What about what about you, Trey?

Yeah, I

Trey: mean, it's my answers low-key as far
as the, yeah, examples given throughout

the episode, it's just that one, I think
ticks all the boxes of the lessons that

I want to see continued moving forward.

Well, I think that is going to do it
for these lessons learned, but before

we wrap up, we do want to do one little
fun question, which is if Disney plus

existed through the infinity saga,
what show would you pitch to Marvel?

I, I can just say, at least for me, I
would have loved to have seen a show

in between age of Ultron and civil war
as maybe not necessarily like like I,

the only word come to mind is training
montage, but seeing that new quote unquote

Avengers team start to really gel because
you had that ending shot with Falcon,

with vision Scarlet witch, and like the
quote unquote new adventures, I think it

would have made civil war that much more
impactful if we would have gotten to get

close to those characters a little bit

Jude: more.

Yeah.

I was thinking like, you
know, a Hawkeye stay at home.

Dad runs a local bowling alley.

You know, on the farm?

No.

Oh, that might be interesting.

God, I know that that's where it's
difficult where my first idea feels so

generic and probably why I'm better as
a backseat writer, executives, actual

writer, executive cause part of me.

Well, and I'm wondering if also would,
just because we haven't finished and

we have a pretty cool, you know, field,
no matter what it is right now, the

thing that keep coming back to is I
love to see Theranose attack on Nova.

Oh.

To get the power stone, not the power
stone, the, a space, the space stone.

Well, I guess, I guess he had,
yeah, no, it was the space stone.

Yeah.

Friend Daniel: There's two ways
to think about this question.

One is.

To imagine gaps in the story, right.

That you could fill in or, you know, and
like, so I'm thinking, was it you guys who

talked about, like, someone talked about
like a series where you follow is it Luis

and man and might've been me like, yeah.

It just like, I was, I'm looking
at my Disney plus app and

I'm looking at all the movies

Jude: 1, 2, 3, 4.

Friend Daniel: Yeah.

And I'm like, it must've been a question
of the week or something, but then

it's like, you know, that would be it.

Maybe it was the same question, Trey, like
what Disney plus show would you like to

see back in the summer of 2020 when you
guys, when we were starved of content, but

like, but like I was thinking like, are
we getting a group cartoon or something?

Yes, I am.

I want to see, I want to see that I
thought of guardians and I was like,

oh, I'd love to see like a rocket.

Cartoon or like a rocket group series.

I think that would be very, very
satisfying to me because they they're

hilarious, but they can do emotional now.

Maybe they need humans to,
to, to, to cipher that.

But that's something that I was thinking.

But back to my original point, like
it's either something that is fills

the gaps or that looks at what we see
from a different perspective, maybe.

Right.

Trey: The way you categorize that as
like either filling in the gaps or from

a different perspective, which would be

Friend Daniel: really, really

Jude: cool.

Hmm.

See different perspective.

What would I want fleshed out

Friend Daniel: or like what you
were saying, Jude, I know you're

joking, but like, you know,
like a different format, right.

You know, like, like, like a
risk, a risky wild take on.

On something.

Well, you could go

Jude: back.

Friend Daniel: Oh, wow.

Oh my gosh.

The winter soldier, the winter soldier.

Yeah.

The winter soldier that I
want to see that series.

I want to see that series.

Jude: Well, so you can go back cause they
didn't hit me and they clearly established

Hank Pym acting as ant man younger.

And you could give kind of adventures
of man and wash Janet van Dyne.

That would be

Trey: fantastic.

Jude: I still think, I still think the
green acres Hawkeye would be fun though.

You, you can just see where he breaks the
tractor, where Tony has to fix it because

he doesn't know what he's doing with it.

Friend Daniel: So I remember when,
when Wanda vision started and then when

we were in the thick of Falcon, when
the soldier we talked about the post.

Blip world the, the, like
the blip, like the what?

Like what happened?

Like the five-year gap?

Yeah.

Yeah.

The five-year gap, like stuff happened.

That'd be really, really cool stuff

Jude: happened.

What I feel like, I know Elitch's answer.

Would we want an agents of
sword show kind of build in

right there up to one division?

Friend Daniel: I was, I was on
the discord during that, when

I was listening to that pod.

Yeah.

Harsh, harsh on a for sure.

Jude: Yes.

Yeah.

Well, you know what?

She, not only she came in
swinging there's stuff.

There's some swing she made
before we even started recording.

They didn't even make it.

Friend Daniel: I can understand though.

Cause when, when that show first
started, I was quite invested in it.

And it was definitely
connected to the MCO.

Yes.

It was written by Jaya with like the
early seasons were written or at least

conceived by Josh Sweden with his brother.

Yeah.

And, and then, and then there was a
falling out or whatever, and just,

it didn't, you know, they stopped
and now it's officially not cannon.

And so I could see that that's that's
that leaves some, some bad, bad mojo.

Trey: Yeah.

Well, I think that's going to do it
for this episode, friend, Daniel.

I just want to say thank
you so much for joining us.

It has been an

Friend Daniel: absolute blast.

It's a pleasure to be here anytime.

This is a fun way.

I've this is my first Dematic episode.

I really like your approach here.

So I'm very, very happy to be here to talk
about this and to kind of look back on

these three shows and think about what.

Well, we did.

I hope we haven't, it's not like
I'm recency bias you know with

low-key, but I do think I do.

I feel, I feel good about it would
be interesting to return to this

and like a year and, and think
about, you know, where we are, but,

Jude: well, Moonlight, cause that'll be, I
guess the one where do they really learn?

You know, do they truly
learn from these shows?

Yeah.

Friend Daniel: Yeah.

So that'll be the first real

Trey: test of of the Disney

Friend Daniel: plus shows.

Jude: Although I have a feeling we
might be able to find a way to get you

on before a year from now and midnight.

I hope so.

Friend Daniel: We'll see.

Trey: That'll be a lot of catching up

Friend Daniel: on everything in the MCU
if we wait that long, but we'll see.

We'll see if, if, if something happens.

Yeah.

Trey: If you want to keep up with more
of the musings of friend Daniel, you

can always find them in our discord
that if you want to comment or have any

questions about this episode, you can
always reach us at MC you need to know

on Twitter and Instagram, or if you'd
like to join the discord, as we were

just talking about, you can find a link.

In the show notes as well.

Jude: Once you get to the
discord, make sure you go to the

role, assign click on the emoji.

It will give you access to all
our spoiler channels on your

podcast, catcher of choice.

Make sure you follow us,
leave a rating and review.

It was a huge help for us in the
feedback and the best thing you can

do for us to share with a friend.

Yeah.

Trey: We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy
for the use of our theme song, which

is his rendition of the Avengers theme.

You play more of his work on
his SoundCloud, which is linked

in the show notes as well.

All right, that's going to do it.

Thank you so much for
listening and June Daniel.

Thank you so much for doing this.

Jude: Thank you tray.

Thank you,

Friend Daniel: Daniel.

Thank

Trey: you.

We'll see you all

Friend Daniel: next week.

Hey, Trey.

Yeah.

Is there a outline?

Yes.

I emailed

Trey: it to you.

Friend Daniel: Is it in the email?

Trey: Let me see.

I thought I emailed

Friend Daniel: it to you.

Is it in, is it in the invite?

It was, I

Trey: sent it the same.

Excuse me.

I sent it the same night that I
did the remotely, but let me double

Friend Daniel: check.

Maybe I got into junk on

Trey: that.

Hurts my feelings.

No no that was on me.

I'm sorry.

I did not send it.

I knew you had one.

All right.

I just sent it now.

It's pretty, it's pretty standard
at, since it's, since we're all

just bringing our own lessons, I
figured we could just kind of do

like a round table sharing thing.

I sent you the wrong one.

Friend Daniel: Can you
send me the template?

Jude: Well, they're all named template.

He hasn't

Friend Daniel: started Nate renaming.

Oh, you're one of those

Trey: dude.

Jared has been very great, but
he also understands that I'm a

monster when it comes to yeah.

Covered

Friend Daniel: in icons.

We're not going to go that

Trey: far.

Friend Daniel: Yeah.

Okay.

A lot of judgment here.

It's

Jude: fun.

My desktop is covered in icons.

I've gotten better though, especially for
the pod about better naming conventions.

Trey: Okay.

Now you should have the template out.